New sail legal?

May 23, 2016
217
O'Day 1984 23 Island Park, NY
My club normally races one designs... 5 races per yet are designated "all boat" races where the cruisers like me get involved... There are no formal NOR (besides a published schedule) or SI ... Otherwise RRS apply...

I recently was gifted a sail from someone's excess inventory... I sail an O'Day 23... The new Genny (I believe its from a j24) measures approximately 135%... And appears to be laminated material (Kevlar reinforced mylar?).

I have been unable to find a class rule for O'Day 23 ... is anyone aware of a class assoc or class rules?

Would this sail be legal in the absence of a rule restricting it?
 

PaulK

.
Dec 1, 2009
1,222
Sabre 402 Southport, CT
The sail may not be class legal for an O'Day 23 if you were racing against other O'Day 23's, but if you're racing in an "all boat" race, you'll be using a handicap rating that should reflect the size of your "new" genoa. What you rate with the genoa is another question. Do you have a PHRF certificate? Going from a working jib to a 135% genoa might lower your handicap by 3 or 4 seconds per mile. A 150% genoa might change it by 4 to 6. If it's as low-key as it sounds, you might simply discuss it with the Race Committee and agree to a number that seems to make sense. According to my PHRF guidebook, the South Bay (NY) PHRF rating for the O'Day 23 is 252 with the standard jib. So maybe aim for something like 248 or 249 with the new jib? Sail fast in any case!
 
May 23, 2016
217
O'Day 1984 23 Island Park, NY
Thanks for the quick reply and good info Paul...
Half the entries in these all-boat races wouldn't participate if they had to get rated, so the club doesn't handicap these races... (the race committee, right or wrong, believes it encourages participation more to give out more trophies to more different people, so each type of boat gets it's own class trophy: there's one and only one Bristol 24, one and only one Bayfield 25... that's one reason why I chose the O'Day 23, mine is the fifth at the club, so I get somewhat-real-competition without having to be married to racing every weekend like the one-designs...)
It's more for bragging rights that I and a particular Catalina 22 go at it, as the only "fast-guys" that participate in every race, and to be listed as Club Chamption (Cruiser Division)...
I did casually discuss it with the race chairman, he said not to worry about it, if a protest is brought we'd have to have a conversation about it, but in the interest of sportsmanship I'd rather not knowingly break the rules and just wait to see if someone protests or if I get away with it...

Could the sail not be "class legal" if there is no "class rule"? In the absence of a class rule, what is the default?
The way I see it: There's no rule prohibiting it. A copy of an old O'Day brochure has a diagram that at least suggests large genoas were available as original equipment. At 135% I don't believe it's larger than any other headsail used by O'Day 23's at the club while racing, and they've never been protested. So anyone who complains is protesting not the sail but the fact that I'm winning. Or maybe the material.
upload_2018-7-10_10-3-10.png
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
There is no such thing as an O'day 23 'One Design'. Such a rule would mandate the one or two sails that can be used for racing. For most OD boats, it is a 100% and if a second is allowed, a 135,140,or 150. As nothing like that exists for the 23, you should be allowed to use the biggest sail that PHRF allows in your region without a penalty. This is either a 150 or 155%. That picture shows at least a 150%. The trick is getting the right sheeting angle to the block.

There is no limitation on sailcloth unless outlined in the NOR or SIs, which of course you have none.
 
May 23, 2016
217
O'Day 1984 23 Island Park, NY
Thanks Jackdaw... so far sheeting angle doesn't seem to be a problem. So the only question left becomes material.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Thanks Jackdaw... so far sheeting angle doesn't seem to be a problem. So the only question left becomes material.
Well like I said, unless your club (via NOR or SI) limit it, laminate is OK. PHRF rules will not limit it in any way, unless it its for a cruising class fleet, which normally mandates dacron only.
 
May 23, 2016
217
O'Day 1984 23 Island Park, NY
Ah, I see you did say that... sorry for my thick skull...
So as a hypothetical, if there was only one guy complaining, and he went out and bought some laminated sail to compete, his argument would vanish... cool.
Thanks again!
 
May 23, 2016
217
O'Day 1984 23 Island Park, NY
PS... technically, it's not just a "cruising class" fleet, but "all boat" so us with cruisers race the same race with Flying Scots, the occasional Capri 14, a Windsurfer etc... only broken into "divisions" later...
 
May 23, 2016
217
O'Day 1984 23 Island Park, NY
Followup: If I were sailing something that DID have a class rule, say a Catalina 22, in these races I'd be held to ALL those class rules, including equipment and behavior (like not raising the swing keel) etc, per RRS78.1, right?
 
Jan 1, 2006
7,039
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
I can tell you that the J22's and J24's aren't restricted to class sails when racing PHRF in our area. I'm not dragging out the rule book for 78.1. Normally for a boat that can carry a 150, you get the rating with the 150. If you rate the boat with a 135 you get a little time. A little more time for the 110. I'm not sure what they do with the J24's and J22's when they use a non class jib. Our J24 rate 174 cruising and the J22 182, I think. Our PHRF handicapper used to give a credit for roller reefing (Which should go away if it hasn't already) and for dacron sails. No penalty for laminate.
 
May 17, 2004
5,028
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
PHRF of the Chesapeake applies a credit of 6 or 9 seconds per mile for roller furling headsails. (6 for drums below deck and 9 above). They will not apply that credit for some laminate headsails per the following criteria: "Roller furling headsails made before January 1, 2001 and constructed of aramid (i.e., Kevlar™, etc.) or carbon material are not allowed roller furling credits. Roller furling headsails built after December 31, 2000, must be of woven material, or have woven taffeta outer skins, and have a woven leech and foot cover of at least 4 oz UV protected woven material to be eligible for a rating adjustment."
 
May 23, 2016
217
O'Day 1984 23 Island Park, NY
Shemandr: Nice to hear from a fellow LIer... 78.1: "While a boat is racing, her owner and any other person in charge shall ensure that the boat is maintained to comply with her class rules ..." There is no qualification limiting this to Class races, or exempting mixed-class races.

Davidasailor26 (et al): Why is Kevlar and Carbon considered different for different manufacture dates?
 
May 17, 2004
5,028
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
Davidasailor26 (et al): Why is Kevlar and Carbon considered different for different manufacture dates?
I don't know what PHRF of Chesapeake's rationale was for drawing a line there. I suspect they wanted to change their rules along the way but didn't want to hurt the handicap of people who had just bought new multi-thousand dollar sails. Unless @Jackdaw or some of the sailmakers who frequent this site have any further insight?
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Followup: If I were sailing something that DID have a class rule, say a Catalina 22, in these races I'd be held to ALL those class rules, including equipment and behavior (like not raising the swing keel) etc, per RRS78.1, right?
You race either under national class rules, or PHRF. What ever one you are racing under, these are the rules you use and the sails you can fly.

UNLESS. Unless your PHRF handicap says 'Cat22 ODR', which means One Design Rating. That rating is based off of your boat sailing with OD sails. Then you must do that. This is a big thing in J105, J109, First367 etc fleets. Without the ODR nomenclature you fly under the PHRF rules.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
I don't know what PHRF of Chesapeake's rationale was for drawing a line there. I suspect they wanted to change their rules along the way but didn't want to hurt the handicap of people who had just bought new multi-thousand dollar sails. Unless @Jackdaw or some of the sailmakers who frequent this site have any further insight?
That's probably the reason. Taffeta was not common before then, and after it made its appearance this was a common rule introduced to break the true racing sails from the performance cruising ones. But they did not want to ding the people with 2 year old sails that did not have the option to buy the taffeta covering and gain the time break.