Head Games...Oh No!

Aug 16, 2015
143
O'Day 28 Salem, MA
Hey all.

Newbie sailor here with a Groco HF toilet on my O’Day 28 doing a great job of bringing in seawater but not emptying the bowl. Have owned the boat for three years and assume some kind of basic rebuild is in order (I know I should replace but that needs to wait). So for rebuild, I have about half a bowl of not pleasant looking water that I assume needs to go away before I begin to disassemble (I certainly want it to go away!). Will a little gentle plunger work make this happen? Other ideas on this particular challenge, and any guidance on rebuild, certainly appreciated. Also, does anyone have an article (link) that would educate me on exactly what is happening in these toilets, i.e. how do they do what they do? (bad grammar!). Tx. Tom O’Day 28.
 

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Oct 26, 2008
6,045
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
Hey Tom! Welcome to the exotic and fantasy-filled world of sailboat maintenance! You will need to give us more detail about what you have observed, tried and failed at doing! The first question for all of us, since you are self-described novice, would be … "do you know how to operate a marine toilet?" It seems that you know how to open the valve to pump in sea water but are you closing the valve to pump the bowl dry? If so, why would the bowl not empty? Either you have a clog in the line between the bowl and the holding tank, or the tank might be full and the vent blocked, or you might be pumping with a "Y" valve on the discharge side directing the effluent to a closed sea cock for overboard discharge.

You will need to describe the condition of all of the components to zero in on an answer!
BTW, I would definitely NOT use a plunger until you are absolutely sure about the reason why the bowl isn't emptying! If you explode the contents of your holding tank, you will probably run away from the sailboat forever.
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,323
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
First, buy this book: https://shop.sailboatowners.com/prod.php?53615 It is a definitive guide to dealing with heads, holding tanks, hoses, and what not.

Two places to look, easy one first. Is the vent for the holding tank clear? Will it allow the pressure from pumping out the head to vent? If it is plugged then all you are doing when pumping the head is pressurizing the holding tank, which will force the stuff back through the hoses and into the bowl.

The second and nasty place to look is the joker valve. It is located at the end of the hose that attaches to the pump. Yes, the bowl and hoses need to be drained. Find someone you don't like and borrow their shop vac and suck it out. (just kidding). The stuff needs to be removed. I've used a small hand bilge pump to pump into a bucket and then properly dispose of it. Take off the hose and replace the joker valve.
 
Nov 6, 2006
9,884
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
Here is a good video on a Jabsco but your pump works the same..
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...42E9E7787A3F3A372B6D42E9E7787A3F3A3&FORM=VIRE
You could have a plugged holding tank vent, which would not let the bowl contents out.. ya could have a bad "joker valve" which lets stuff out the pump to the tank but prevents return.. or you could have a bad "foot" flapper valve at the bottom of the pump.. or a combination..
 
Jan 22, 2008
8,050
Beneteau 323 Annapolis MD
A first test for the vent: Pour some water on the deck pumpout fitting. JUST BARELY crack loose the cap and see if it blows bubbles. If so, leave it that WAY TO RELEASE PRESSURE IN THE TANK. Then, unscrew it all the way off. Try the toilet pump again now that the tank is vented via the pumpout.
 
Nov 6, 2006
9,884
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
More: don't try the plunger.. could surprise you with a gusher..
Note that a new Jabsco is about the same price as the Groco rebuild parts..
https://www.westmarine.com/buy/jabsco--twist-n-lock-compact-toilet--9532748?recordNum=8
Jabsco has improved their toilet and it is a pretty good solution to the problem.. The Raritan is a really good toilet
https://www.westmarine.com/buy/raritan--phii-manual-toilet--262907?recordNum=19
but a little pricy.. This site has a kit that allows you to re-use an existing bowl and get the good mechanicals of the Raritan.. Not a fun job! but like running aground, there are those who have and those who will sooner or later..
 
Oct 24, 2010
2,405
Hunter 30 Everett, WA
Here is a good video on a Jabsco but your pump works the same..
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...42E9E7787A3F3A372B6D42E9E7787A3F3A3&FORM=VIRE
You could have a plugged holding tank vent, which would not let the bowl contents out.. ya could have a bad "joker valve" which lets stuff out the pump to the tank but prevents return.. or you could have a bad "foot" flapper valve at the bottom of the pump.. or a combination..
NOOO. NO. Noooo. The deck fitting is routed to the bottom of the tank. If the vent is plugged and the deck fitting opened, it will pump tank contents onto your deck when you pump the toilet. First, pump out the tank properly, then go from there.

Ken
 
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Nov 6, 2006
9,884
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
ditto ditto ditto ditto CaptKimble..
Make sure vent is clear before pumping out the holding tank 'cause you could implode it or crack it with the pump-out pump..
 
Aug 16, 2015
143
O'Day 28 Salem, MA
Holy Cow!!! Help abundance. OK, I'm a newbie, but I know when the tank is drawing seawater, how to pump dry, etc. With seawater intake closed, the pump handle effectively just goes up and down, without any resistance or pressure, and the "water" in the bowl just seems to wallow in place - not sure if that is the right term. It's moving, almost in and up and down pattern, but its not going anywhere. Had earlier confirmed that my holding tank vent was open and functional. I have never pumped out the tank - just used macerator and so on when far enough out to sea... I'm hoping a joker valve...but I have the repair kit coming so assume I will be replacing a lot of parts... Sounds like no picnic getting the standing water out of the toilet. Oh boy....the fun never ends. I just finished running 20 ft. of new bilge hose and that was also a delight... Bad day on a boat still a good one?
 
Aug 16, 2015
143
O'Day 28 Salem, MA
More: don't try the plunger.. could surprise you with a gusher..
Note that a new Jabsco is about the same price as the Groco rebuild parts..
https://www.westmarine.com/buy/jabsco--twist-n-lock-compact-toilet--9532748?recordNum=8
Jabsco has improved their toilet and it is a pretty good solution to the problem.. The Raritan is a really good toilet
https://www.westmarine.com/buy/raritan--phii-manual-toilet--262907?recordNum=19
but a little pricy.. This site has a kit that allows you to re-use an existing bowl and get the good mechanicals of the Raritan.. Not a fun job! but like running aground, there are those who have and those who will sooner or later..
Yikes....$500.....the next owner will love me!!!
 
May 20, 2016
3,014
Catalina 36 MK1 94 Everett, WA
Sounds like something stuck in the joker to me. If the vent was plugged you would get more resistance on the plunger.
You crew knows not to put anything but pee, poo and Marine toilet paper in the head right?? Tampons, disposable wipes, paper towels, and cushy TP can All get stuck in the joker valve making it not work.

Les
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,323
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Yikes....$500.....the next owner will love me!!!
Because the Raritan works so well, the current owner's wife will love you. ;)

Lesson 2, West Marine is not always the best source for economical marine parts. As mentioned above, the SBO store sells the pump assembly for the Raritan PHII for less than a new one. And Defender.com sells the PHII for about $75 less than WM. https://www.defender.com/product3.j...ne-toilet&path=-1|51|2234284|2234286&id=10301

From what you describe in your later post, it does sound like a joker valve. They should be replaced every year or two or as soon as you notice that it's not working as well as it should.

Don't forget to buy Peggie Hall's book. A well spent $20 or so.
 
Aug 16, 2015
143
O'Day 28 Salem, MA
Ms. Peggy's book is on the way - it will sit right next to my "This Old Boat" and "Annapolis Book of Seamanship" resources. Boy am I a newbie... Thanks folks. I'll keep you posted.
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,323
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
I may need to retire so I can spend all my time sailing, reading and repairing.
Speaking from experience, there is something to be said for having money show up in the bank account as long you keep breathing. :)

It is well worth the 46 years I spent working. :waycool: