Rules question: what if you touch a bridge that is a mark on a course?

Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
The race SIs list the bridge as a mark on the course. If you touch it do you spin? Why? Why not?

pic89064.jpg
 
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JRacer

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Aug 9, 2011
1,331
Beneteau 310 Cheney KS (Wichita)
Rule 31 – “While racing, a boat shall not touch . . . a mark that begins, bounds, or ends the leg of the course on which she is sailing . . . “

Yes, you spin. Unless, of course, you are in MN and touch it with the top of your mast, then you break off the stick, write a check and make a donation in next weeks collection plate.

However, said bridge also meets the definition of an "obstruction" and if the boat/crew touching it was put in that position by another competitor failing to give him room to avoid the obstruction, then he would have an argument for being exonerated from having to take a penalty for touching the obstruction.

All I can give you off the top without digging out a rule book!
 
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Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Does the RRS defining of ‘mark’ factor into this?
 

JRacer

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Aug 9, 2011
1,331
Beneteau 310 Cheney KS (Wichita)
You made me dig out the book! Rule 19 is what I referred to above re: giving room at an obstruction. But, when an obstruction is also a mark to be left on a required side, RULE 19 does not apply. In the original post, it is not clear that another competitor was in play. So, given that is correct, my original statement that touching the mark requires turns would be correct, I believe.
 
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Aug 22, 2017
1,609
Hunter 26.5 West Palm Beach
I agree that turns are required.

I am not sure that the bridge is an obstruction in this case. It would seem that it most certainly is a mark. A mark offset buoy is a case where something is both a mark of the course & an obstruction to the course. I have seen that example run up the flagpole more than once, with some very different opinions given by various well-experienced race officers who were at or above the RRO level.

Edit:
Scratch that. The bridge piling is probably also an obstruction. I just read the RRS definition. There is some ambiguity about how much of a deviation constitutes "substantial", but I am going to judge this as fitting the definition of an obstruction in my opinion.
 
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weinie

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Sep 6, 2010
1,297
Jeanneau 349 port washington, ny
Does the RRS defining of ‘mark’ factor into this?
not a mark:
Mark An object the sailing instructions require a boat to leave on a specified side, and a race committee vessel surrounded by navigable water from which the starting or finishing line extends. An anchor line or an object attached accidentally to a mark is not part of it.
 
Oct 1, 2007
1,856
Boston Whaler Super Sport Pt. Judith
The race SIs list the bridge as a mark on the course. If you touch it do you spin? Why? Why not?

View attachment 151911
Good one.
I don't see why this bridge is different from any other "government mark".
Were it me, I'd do the turns or I'd bet I'd see red flags going up.
We used to have a rule similar to this on the Newport Bridge. Rule said you must pass through one of the 3 center spans, or out you go.
 
May 17, 2004
5,032
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
The SI's describe the bridge as a "mark or passage", not exclusively as a mark. It seems like the bridge doesn't meet the criteria of something that must be left "on the specified side", so I'd say it's a passage, not a mark. I don't see other boats in the picture so I assume rules about obstructions don't apply. Pushing off the bridge could be considered propulsion, but rule 42.3(h) allows pushing off an object to get clear after colliding. I vote no violations.
 

JRacer

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Aug 9, 2011
1,331
Beneteau 310 Cheney KS (Wichita)
With those sailing instructions, the bridge is not a Mark because it does not have a "required side" (footnote b). So, we go back to it being an obstruction. No rule about touching an obstruction except perhaps the earlier argument about propulsion. So, assuming that the propulsion argument is not an issue, I say no turns required.
 
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pateco

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Aug 12, 2014
2,207
Hunter 31 (1983) Pompano Beach FL
With those sailing instructions, the bridge is not a Mark because it does not have a "required side" (footnote b). So, we go back to it being an obstruction. No rule about touching an obstruction except perhaps the earlier argument about propulsion. So, assuming that the propulsion argument is not an issue, I say no turns required.
Agreed
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
First, no protest was lodged so no way to know what the local PC would have thought of this.

But I'm in the 'no spin' camp. The RRS define a 'mark', and clearly a bridge cannot be one, at least not technically. The SIs call the list 'marks of the course', but then confusingly list the 5 as 'marks or passage'. So if it cannot technically be a mark, it must be a passage. Therefore my logic says that unless you bust some other rule (like propulsion) you are probably OK on RSS31. RRS42.3(h) is worded funny. It allows you to get clear by pushing off, but only after a colliding. Net-net, bet the OC cleans that rule up for next year.
 
Aug 22, 2017
1,609
Hunter 26.5 West Palm Beach
To take this one step further back, the writer of the SIs might want to review the issue & consider more concise wording for the next time around.
 
Jun 2, 2011
347
Hunter H33 Port Credit Harbour, ON.
The race SIs list the bridge as a mark on the course. If you touch it do you spin? Why? Why not?

View attachment 151911
I'm not a racer so I will leave the technical arguments to others but judging from the amount of concrete missing from the corner, that bridge has jumped out in front of a few people. Must be a difficult mark. :)
 
May 17, 2004
5,032
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
RRS42.3(h) is worded funny. It allows you to get clear by pushing off, but only after a colliding.
I agree, very funny wording. Although re-reading the basic rule of propulsion in 42.1, it says: "Except when permitted in rule 42.3 or 45, a boat shall compete by using only the wind and water to increase, maintain or decrease her speed. Her crew may adjust the trim of sails and hull, and perform other acts of seamanship, but shall not otherwise move their bodiest to propel the boat."

Maybe pushing off to avoid collision is a "basic act of seamanship" and permitted, even though it's not using wind or water, or an adjustment to trim of sails and hull? If not, I need to actually trade paint with the bridge (or windward boat that's turning into me, or whatever), before I get exonerated, which doesn't seem practical.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Video of the race. A real thrill-ride.

 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Here's another racing question. The race is run under PHRF rules. Look at the first pic. What other rule might be be in violation of??
 
Jun 8, 2004
2,841
Catalina 320 Dana Point
Are you allowed to "push off" a mark ? Like Kermit, around here if you "touch" a bridge it might result in an autopsy.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Are you allowed to "push off" a mark ? Like Kermit, around here if you "touch" a bridge it might result in an autopsy.
This is the funny wording of the rule I mentioned earlier. It says YES you can, but (reading critically) only AFTER you have collided into it.

RRS42.3(h)
To get clear after grounding or colliding with a vessel or object, a boat may use force applied by her crew or the crew of the other vessel and any equipment other than a propulsion engine