News flash: cool fast boats sell.

Jan 11, 2014
11,323
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
This brings up a GREAT point about interior woodwork. I agree that nothing looks as good as a hand-built wooden interior in a boat. And the likes of Sabre and Hinckley had this down to an art form.
As a serial Sabre owner (a Sabre 30 MK 1 and a Sabre 362) I resemble this remark!

At least Sabre and its nearest competitor Tartan showed that a nicely finished boat could still be competitive and sail well. On Lake Ontario, the PHRF rating for a Sabre 362 is about the same as a J30 and it weighs about twice as much as the J30. My goal isn't to race the boat, it is to cruise out the St. Lawrence and down the East Coast to the Bahamas. For my money, I get the sailing performance of a J30 with considerably more room and comfort.

Compared to a J35, my S362 is much slower (PHRF ~ 140 vs ~72), but I can stand up in my 362 and the interior is considerably more comfortable.

To each his own. For the money I"ve spent on my 362, I could have purchased a newer Catalina or Beneteau of about the same size, however, the Sabre is much more to my liking. I'm not sure that Medicare would cover medical expenses incurred while sailing a hot cruising boat like a Pogo.
 
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JRT

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Feb 14, 2017
2,039
Catalina 310 211 Lake Guntersville, AL
I kind of felt what you are saying Jack when we started looking at getting into boating. For a few years my wife and I have enjoyed boat shows and thinking what would be fun and family oriented. Although I did get to sail in New England years ago, I felt I should be 'safe' and look at power boats. As such I really wasn't interested in buying someone's problem. My 'budget' had us considering new trailer boats in the mid 20s to mid 30s and possible family boats. But the back of my heart I really wanted to look at sail boats since we have talked for years of 'retiring' and sailing the Caribbean. I looked at new and was shocked at the price. As a point of record I prefer something new and then keep it so I know the issues. But the 'new boats I looked at for what I thought I wanted (Hunter, Catalina, Precision) seemed pricey for new when a pretty good used market gave the same performance.
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,048
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
None the less, most of us do not want to hear our pride and joys referred to as tubby.
It is a fair point and seemed to set a few of us off. Not me, I don't mind the intended jab done in humor. I often tell Sue that I'm going to see my "wide-a$$ mistress".

Not to pick on jviss' sensitivity (I think I detected some :)), he makes a perfect example of what this thread is all about. His recent purchase of a used Tartan 3800 didn't benefit any boat builder. I'm sure he spent a substantial amount to buy used because he found what he wanted without needing to buy new. He didn't go to Tartan and say "hey, what are you making these days that really captures my attention?" He evidently surmised that the new boats didn't offer anything new that would interest him. The only way that his purchase would help to support the boat-building industry would be if the Seller of his boat was buying a new boat and needed to sell the used boat to make it happen. I wonder how that actually played out?

I'll come right out and say it. A little controversy and confrontation shouldn't really hurt anyone. Heck, a little jab here and there keeps me coming back to SBO forums for the stimulation! If everything was all nice and polite ALL the time, wouldn't it get a little boring? Don't ALL families have conflicts and squabbles? I agree with Dave, there are plenty of forums that are over the top with abusive behavior. We are very congenial in this group and have a great diversity of opinion as well. It's the reason that it is the only sailing forum that I enter. I enter the MLB forum for baseball discussions and you have to wade thru the ridiculous comments. Our group is the best as far as I'm concerned.
 
May 12, 2004
1,502
Hunter Cherubini 30 New Port Richey
It is a fair point and seemed to set a few of us off. Not me, I don't mind the intended jab done in humor. I often tell Sue that I'm going to see my "wide-a$$ mistress".

Not to pick on jviss' sensitivity (I think I detected some :)), he makes a perfect example of what this thread is all about. His recent purchase of a used Tartan 3800 didn't benefit any boat builder. I'm sure he spent a substantial amount to buy used because he found what he wanted without needing to buy new. He didn't go to Tartan and say "hey, what are you making these days that really captures my attention?" He evidently surmised that the new boats didn't offer anything new that would interest him. The only way that his purchase would help to support the boat-building industry would be if the Seller of his boat was buying a new boat and needed to sell the used boat to make it happen. I wonder how that actually played out?

I'll come right out and say it. A little controversy and confrontation shouldn't really hurt anyone. Heck, a little jab here and there keeps me coming back to SBO forums for the stimulation! If everything was all nice and polite ALL the time, wouldn't it get a little boring? Don't ALL families have conflicts and squabbles? I agree with Dave, there are plenty of forums that are over the top with abusive behavior. We are very congenial in this group and have a great diversity of opinion as well. It's the reason that it is the only sailing forum that I enter. I enter the MLB forum for baseball discussions and you have to wade thru the ridiculous comments. Our group is the best as far as I'm concerned.
Well said, Scott. :clap: As long as we keep it civil and don't resort to name-calling all is good.
 
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jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
6,745
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
New build techniques use pre-formed and pre-cut pieces that install into slots and tabs, and are placed rapidly by semi-skilled teams. Brings the build cost down.
Ikea comes to mind.
 

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
6,745
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
It is a fair point and seemed to set a few of us off. Not me, I don't mind the intended jab done in humor. I often tell Sue that I'm going to see my "wide-a$$ mistress".

Not to pick on jviss' sensitivity (I think I detected some :)), he makes a perfect example of what this thread is all about. His recent purchase of a used Tartan 3800 didn't benefit any boat builder. I'm sure he spent a substantial amount to buy used because he found what he wanted without needing to buy new. He didn't go to Tartan and say "hey, what are you making these days that really captures my attention?" He evidently surmised that the new boats didn't offer anything new that would interest him. The only way that his purchase would help to support the boat-building industry would be if the Seller of his boat was buying a new boat and needed to sell the used boat to make it happen. I wonder how that actually played out?

I'll come right out and say it. A little controversy and confrontation shouldn't really hurt anyone. Heck, a little jab here and there keeps me coming back to SBO forums for the stimulation! If everything was all nice and polite ALL the time, wouldn't it get a little boring? Don't ALL families have conflicts and squabbles? I agree with Dave, there are plenty of forums that are over the top with abusive behavior. We are very congenial in this group and have a great diversity of opinion as well. It's the reason that it is the only sailing forum that I enter. I enter the MLB forum for baseball discussions and you have to wade thru the ridiculous comments. Our group is the best as far as I'm concerned.
Thanks, Scott. I think my Tartan purchase helps Tartan, because a vigorous used market with good prices supports the price and reputation of Tartan's new product. I couldn't afford a new one, but you know what, I they don't make a new one that satisfies my needs and wants as this one does. Honest. It was fortuitous as I had my heart set on a T3700, and my wife really wanted to look at this T3800. I did, to be a good husband, and fell in love with it! Yea, Jackdaw, as one T3800 owner told me, there are 1,600 pieces of teak in this boat! All oiled and beautiful, save the varnished teak drop-leaf table and polyurethaned teak and holly sole.
 
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Oct 26, 2008
6,048
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
I think my Tartan purchase helps Tartan, because a vigorous used market with good prices supports the price and reputation of Tartan's new product.
Well, yes, there is validity in that. But your statements really just validate the premise in JD's original post. Boat builders (Tartan in this case) may gain some residual benefit from your support of their pricing structure. But they will never survive if they don't sell new boats. You just agreed ... "nothing new and interesting to see in their production line, better off buying a used boat in good condition." Are they shooting themselves in the foot by building high quality traditional boats when a dwindling market is buying their boats on the second-hand market? No, I wouldn't go that far. I don't think they should use the Bic model and sell disposable boats. (Bic was a case-study in my business school class - many, many years ago :( - to illustrate how an industry thrives by marketing disposable products, just to clarify the reference.)
The sailboat production industry does have to innovate to stimulate market expansion, not rely on dwindling existing markets, or they fail, which is bad for us. I think that Jackdaw is pointing out that fast and efficient needs to be the name of the game for boat builders, because traditional is doomed to failure. Maybe he is right or wrong about his specific criteria, but the fact is that innovation is necessary for survival. Adapt or fail, as every business knows.
 
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Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Bull. Example: Catalina 36, 2035 units from 1983 through 2007.
The Catalina 36 was built until 1994, when it was replaced by with the Mark 2. Different deck, different interiors. Different boat.
 
Apr 5, 2009
2,774
Catalina '88 C30 tr/bs Oak Harbor, WA
Mk1, Mk2 same hull = same boat design. In Catalina fleets, the Mk1 and Mk2 boats sail as 1 design. The Mk2's are usually at a bit if a handicap because they tend to be heavier.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Mk1, Mk2 same hull = same boat design. In Catalina fleets, the Mk1 and Mk2 boats sail as 1 design. The Mk2's are usually at a bit if a handicap because they tend to be heavier.
That’s an interesting tidbit but you’re missing the bigger point. Sales numbers from the booming 70s and 80s have no bearing on the market realities of today. In today’s world, any builder is estatic when they have a sales backlog on a model.

Again, we’re trying to talk about how builders can build and sell boats TODAY, and not in 1982.
 

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
6,745
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
The Catalina 36 was built until 1994, when it was replaced by with the Mark 2. Different deck, different interiors. Different boat.
No they are not different boats, they are virtually identical. I have a 1984, and have been on every other mark. Same hull, virtually identical interiors, minor changes to deck. Same boat.
 

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
6,745
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
traditional is doomed to failure
I don't agree with this. I think with that logic, one could argue that sailboats would go away ijn favor of powerboats. Having a sailboat will change your life. Going marginally faster, to a speed that is still not very fast in absolute terms, not so much.

Think of the used vs. new car market.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
No they are not different boats, they are virtually identical. I have a 1984, and have been on every other mark. Same hull, virtually identical interiors, minor changes to deck. Same boat.
Tell that to someone that owns a Mk2. The 2 has a much smoother, modern deck build, and an modern open transom. That's hard to miss when shopping. No one in their right mind would consider the the two identical, or say the Mk2 is not more modern. Which is exactly why they did it. After 10 years of Mark1s, there are trying to make sure you have a reason to buy a NEW one, and not a used one that looks exactly the same. Marketing 101.


But again you're missing the bigger point.
 
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jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
6,745
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
Tell that to someone that owns a Mk2. The 2 has a much smoother, modern deck build, and an modern open transom. That's hard to miss when shopping. No one in their right mind would consider the the two identical, or say the Mk2 is not more modern. Which is exactly why they did it.


But again you're missing the bigger point.
So, you are saying I'm not in my right mind? The sugar scoop transom is nice, but it hardly makes it a different boat.

If it was so different, Catalina would have given it a different name and started the serial numbers/hull numbers from 1. But they didn't, they call it a C36, and they numbered them consecutively, all the way from 1983 to 2007.

So, Catalina doesn't consider it a different boat, but, hey, what do they know?

But, there's apparently no arguing with you, if it's so important for you to be right, here you go, I'll give you this one.

Correction: #2305, the last C36 made, was completed in November 2006 (not 2007, as I previously stated).