Starting When Start Battery is Dead?

[DayDreamer41]

We purchased a DS 41 last year in September, sailed her some 500 Nm's to the home port and shortly after put her up for the winter. During the off season I have been studying the manuals and going over the boat attempting to familiarize myself with every nuance of the vessel, I am currently in the middle of a project replacing the batteries as the originals were tired out, while doing this I have arrived at a question as to how do I start this boat when the starter bat is dead?
There are (2) on/off switches for house and starter bat, in the panel that houses these switches and various circuit breakers there is a solenoid (like a starter solenoid) that appears to join the house and starter bat's with each side of this solenoid protected by a 150 amp breaker. There are (4) wires on the solenoid - (2) 2/0 on each side of the solenoid and then (2) 16 ga wires which control the solenoids closure, what I can't figure out is what activates the control wires? (yellow and yellow/red tracer) Hunters wiring diagrams in the manuals are basically branch drawings for cable lengths and give absolutely no hint as the where the control wires go?
The manual states, "When the starter battery is dead the motor may be started with the house batteries"? and that is it? so how does one go about this? does it happen automatically? there is no obvious way to do this and there is no instruction in the manual that I can find, so I ask you, do you know how this happens? your input is appreciated.

Mark

 

[Tom J]

The solenoid you describe is called an Automatic Charge Relay (ACR). It senses the voltage of the battery banks, and closes when one bank is fully charged by the alternator, so the second bank can start charging. The 16 gauge wires you saw are the sensing wires. Operation of the ACR is automatic, of course. You can set it up so the house battery bank charges first, or the start battery charges first.
To start the engine with the house bank, you would use the large battery switches. Most boats have a 1-2-BOTH-0FF switch, so that by turning the switch to BOTH, the house bank and the start battery are combined, and the engine would start. On your boat, you should be able to turn both battery switches to ON and the engine should start.

 

[Ron20324]

The OP title says the house battery is dead, and you do not want to combine a good battery to the dead one by switching to "both".

 

[DayDreamer41]

Thanks TJ for the explanation, the battery isolation switches are 2 position on or off, and there are 2 of them, one for house and one for starter bat banks. So the ACR would close automatically to allow starting from the house bank? And rotating the start bank switch to off would isolate the bank from the charging circuit. Now all I have to figure out is how the charging circuits, alternator and invertor / charger tie into the banks. Sure wish there were decent wiring diagrams.

 

[geek_guy]

No you have it backwards. The ACR only allows charge to go to the 2 battery banks. Not power to come out of the battery banks. It's a good thing for charge to automatically go to the banks, but may be a bad thing if you had a or both battery banks online and forgot and they both got discharged. Think if you were at anchor and forgot and had both battery banks providing power to the radio and fridge to the point where your none of your batteries could start the engine. The switches allow you to only use the house bank, leaving the start battery fully charged. But if by chance the start battery was bad, you could use the house bank for an emergency. Your charging sources 'should' be set up to automatically charge both banks while keeping them separate for providing power.

 

[LeslieTroyer]

You "should" have another switch that parallel's the batteries or allows the house battery to start the engine - when I got my boat like yours it had two on/off switches - one connected the start battery to the motor, the other the house to the motor (both on combines both banks) - there was no house on/off. I don't know how common this wiring method was but that might be what you have. I have since added a house off. I also plan on an alternator service disconnect so I can kill all power to the engine and still have house lights...

Les

 

[DayDreamer41]

This is what I have and its called a, "Battery Isolator" by Cole Hersee

 

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[weinie]

Friend of mine had the same boat and I had to troubleshoot it every time one of his batteries didn't charge.
There was no way to use another battery to start the engine unless you physically jumped it.
That solenoid is supposed to combine the house and start batteries when the alternator or battery charger are operating.
That solenoid failed once and was the cause of one of his charging issues.

 

[Johnb]

Not right on topic but relevant - if you have a compression release know how you can use it to get the engine spinning on very weak batteries and then started.

 

[DayDreamer41]

Not right on topic but relevant - if you have a compression release know how you can use it to get the engine spinning on very weak batteries and then started.

Thats interesting thanks I will have to look at the Yanmar manual to see if the 4JH4E has that feature.

 

[Stu Jackson]

an Automatic Charge Relay (ACR). It senses the voltage of the battery banks, and closes when one bank is fully charged by the alternator, so the second bank can start charging.

As later mentioned by the OP in his wiring diagram, it is not an ACR but a solenoid.
Also, that's NOT what ACRs do. ONLY when charging is present, the relay closes (i.e., allows current to flow) when voltage reaches (usually 13.6+/-) and opens when it drops to 12.7+/-. "...when one bank is fully charged by the alternator..." is wrong.

You "should" have another switch that parallel's the batteries or allows the house battery to start the engine

Les is correct.
DayDreamer, try these:

OEM 1-2-B Switch Wiring History http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4949.msg30101.html#msg30101

Basic Battery Wiring Diagrams This is a very good basic primer for boat system wiring: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6604.0.html

This is another very good basic primer for boat system wiring: The 1-2-B Switch by Maine Sail (brings together a lot of what this subject is all about)
http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=137615

This is a newer primer for boat system wiring design with a thorough digram: Building a Good Foundation (October 2016)
http://forums.sailboatowners.com/in...dc-electrical-foundation.181929/#post-1332240
*****************
I haven't "inspected" your posted wiring diagram. Looks like you're on the right track, though, in getting into the details of what you actually have on your boat.

Happy delving.

 

[ice breaker]

You "should" have another switch that parallel's the batteries or allows the house battery to start the engine - when I got my boat like yours it had two on/off switches - one connected the start battery to the motor, the other the house to the motor (both on combines both banks) - there was no house on/off. I don't know how common this wiring method was but that might be what you have. I have since added a house off. I also plan on an alternator service disconnect so I can kill all power to the engine and still have house lights...

Les

I have a 2004, ac41. If yours is wired like ours is, there is no way to use the batery switches to transfer power from the house to the start. Take jumper cables with you. The electric diagrams for the 41's do not match the actual wiring. In fact the on off rotary switch for the house bank is not connected. The only way to fully isolate the house bank is by disconnecting the batery cables from the batteries. I believe that this change was made to support the inverters that became pretty standard around this time. My boats electric system has not been modified.....it came from the factory this way.

I would suggest that you take the wiring diagram that you have and open up the panel and trace the schematic against your system. They may have changed it in later years, but I would be surprised.


On the solenoid issue(cole hersy) It is normally open keeping the house and start batteries separate. However, when you start your yanmar, and the alternator starts to produce charge, it closes and charges both banks, house and start. If you have a genset, the alternator on the genset will only charge the start batery and does not activate the solenoid. Of course you are now producing electricity and can now use your inverter/charger to fill up the house bank.

 

[DayDreamer41]

Friend of mine had the same boat and I had to troubleshoot it every time one of his batteries didn't charge.
There was no way to use another battery to start the engine unless you physically jumped it.
That solenoid is supposed to combine the house and start batteries when the alternator or battery charger are operating.
That solenoid failed once and was the cause of one of his charging issues.

So what I am hearing is while I am evaluating the battery and charging systems I might as well look at some rework to ensure operational stability. Thanks for the insight, I had a pretty good hunch that there was no way of using the house bat's for starting purposes as the rotary isolation switches are only (2) way ON / OFF and the buss bar on the solenoid just didn't look beefy enough to carry starter motor amperage loads.

 

[ice breaker]

Thats interesting thanks I will have to look at the Yanmar manual to see if the 4JH4E has that feature.

There is no compression release on that engine.

 

[weinie]

What you can do is simply wire an ON/OFF switch with a lead going to the load end of your existing battery swtic

So what I am hearing is while I am evaluating the battery and charging systems I might as well look at some rework to ensure operational stability. Thanks for the insight, I had a pretty good hunch that there was no way of using the house bat's for starting purposes as the rotary isolation switches are only (2) way ON / OFF and the buss bar on the solenoid just didn't look beefy enough to carry starter motor amperage loads.

You can add an on/off switch with battery cables to the load end of each existing battery switch. In combination with the existing switches, turning this switch to on will allow you to run the starter off the house bank, the house bank off the start bank, or combine both banks.

 

[DayDreamer41]

I have a 2004, ac41.
On the solenoid issue(cole hersy) It is normally open keeping the house and start batteries separate. However, when you start your yanmar, and the alternator starts to produce charge, it closes and charges both banks, house and start. If you have a genset, the alternator on the genset will only charge the start batery and does not activate the solenoid. Of course you are now producing electricity and can now use your inverter/charger to fill up the house bank.

This answers my question as to what the Y/YwR wires do on the solenoid, alternator output closes the solenoid to charge the bats. Sure sounds like I will be busy with some rewiring of the system, I have plans to upgrade the 80 A Mitsubishi alternator to a Mainesail provided marine unit which will cause some rewiring to utilize an external regulator and Smart Battery Gauge, man am I going to be busy, but I like these kinds of projects.

Mark

 

[pateco]

If you are redoing it, you might want to look at adding this.

Add-A-Battery Kit - 120A 7650

 

[Maine Sail]

Hunter, and many others, have done a number of things over the years that made little sense electrically. Most of it was to save money not to serve the customer in a "cruiser friendly" design. Don't feel too bad I am digging into a nearly brand new Hanse next week that is horribly wired for charging and switch management...

The easiest solution:

#1 Map out what you have by tracing it down and then drawing it out so you're not guessing.

#2 Come up with a list of wants, needs and desires and figure out what you already have to work with and what it will take to modify it.

#3 For the starting off either bank, and cross connection, add a simple third ON/OFF switch. This is a inexpensive and easy job. The emergency switch should be located on the "load" side of the ON/OFF's so you create bank isolation when needed.

#4 Loose the ignition activated Cole Hersee solenoid, most of them are ignition switch activated, and replace it with a Blue Sea ACR. In later years Hunter did use some voltage sensing models and Marlow moved to quality Blue Sea ACR's. If you have solar or alternative energy be sure to use the SI feature or "start isolation" of the ACR..

 

[Tom J]

Wow, I learned a lot about Hunters today! I had assumed that any boat manufacturer would incorporate a way to combine the battery banks, like on my Catalina. But then, Catalina didn't see any need to install any 12V receptacles! What's up with that? Just saying.