Florida Craziness

Nov 22, 2008
3,562
Endeavour 32 Portland, Maine
Long time readers may remember the post from my now archived forum which went spectacularly over the top in view count at 30,708. The title was. “I’ll Never Go To Florida Again.”

http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=148671&#post990210

(BTW the archived forum of my previous adventures, resorted into chronological order for easier reading, can be bound here: http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/forumdisplay.php?f=142. Numerous pictures have disappeared but I hope to get the links restored someday.)

Now that I have crew and can consider doing much of the coast offshore, going to Florida seems more attractive. Dreameagle is also more interested than I am in getting to warmer waters and, as we all know, it isn’t a happy ship if the crew isn’t happy.

My problem is that I am a resident of Maine which does not independently register vessels with Federal Documentation. For an excellent rundown on the issue, see this article by my friend John Kettelwell who many may know from his excellent ICW chartbook.

http://www.oceannavigator.com/May-June-2013/A-fog-of-regulation/

I called the tax office in Nassau, the ICW gateway county for the state, and was told that I could bring my vessel into Florida for up to 90 days as long as I had a valid Coast Guard Certificate of Documentation on board, even if not also state registered. I asked about getting the Sojourner’s Permit, essentially a temporary FL registration and referred to by responders to the post linked above as the solution to my operating legally in Florida. I was told that, since I didn’t need the permit unless I was in the state for more than 90 days, they didn’t want to issue it. I should cruise until shortly before the period was up and then obtain the permit at the nearest county tax office if I needed it. This is completely at odds with Kettelwell’s article so I got back to him. As he has reported on Cruisersnet.net, he contacted the Florida Fish and Wildlife Commission (FWC), the lead agency for on-the-water law enforcement in Florida, and wrote:

To confirm this I recently contacted Captain Tom Shipp of the FWC, Department of Law Enforcement, Boating and Waterways, and he reinforced this interpretation of the law with the following statement: "A vessel, federally documented or not, that is not covered by a registration from another state or by the U.S.C.G. in a state without a federally approved numbering system, is not provided that 90 day reciprocity time and would need to register with DHSMV."
So, as is all too often the case with state agencies, the left hand doesn’t know what the right middle finger is doing.

Many, and probably most, FL cruisers from Maine, Massachusetts, North and South Carolina, the states that do not register documented vessels, have not experienced problems. However, in view of the heavy handed law enforcement and frequent boardings reported in the state, I would like to be fully legal there, especially after my experience with the same issue in Maryland reported here:

http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=161267&#post1107210

I think I got out of that one as easily as I did only because they realized that I was a guest of a major institution in town which is also the landlord for the slips in which they keep their patrol vessels. If I had just been passing through, who knows?

The Florida state department in charge of enforcing laws on the water says I can’t bring my boat without a piece of paper that the office charged with issuing it says I don’t need and is reluctant to give me, crazy. I have another inquiry into the FL FWC to see if anything has changed. I’ll let you know.
 
Jan 27, 2008
3,045
ODay 35 Beaufort, NC
NC is now requiring documented vessels to register, pay a fee and apply a state decal at the bow. Just another tax.
 
Oct 4, 2010
7
Pearson 323 Rockland
Can't help with FL, but rest assured, Maine gets its money. The actual registration is cheap and is waived; the excise tax is far greater and must be paid. In fact, I can't even register my mooring without paying my local excise tax. They always, always get you.

Steve
 

Tom J

.
Sep 30, 2008
2,301
Catalina 310 Quincy, MA
Can't help with FL, but rest assured, Maine gets its money. The actual registration is cheap and is waived; the excise tax is far greater and must be paid. In fact, I can't even register my mooring without paying my local excise tax. They always, always get you.

Steve
Same in Taxachusetts.
 
Nov 22, 2008
3,562
Endeavour 32 Portland, Maine
It isn't about the money. I'm willing, although not happy, to pay Maine. I'm willing, although not happy, to pay Florida. Neither can find a way to give me a piece of paper that will prevent a time consuming and inconvenient flap following a "Show me your papers" boarding by a FL FWC officer.

I'm working on another angle as described in this email to BoatUS of this morning:

Mr. Kennedy,

I just left a phone message and then found your email which is probably a better way of discussing this anyway.

I am a retired, live aboard, snowbird cruiser who writes an online column for Sailboatowners.com so am interested in this topic beyond just my personal situation. I am a legal resident of Maine although only there about once a year for my summer cruise. My vessel is documented but, as I am sure you know, Maine does not separately register documented vessels. I do get a decal when I pay my local excise tax but receive no other paperwork other than a cash or credit card receipt. In any event, the decal expires Jan 1 as I cruise south and cannot be replaced for a couple of months after Maine gets those distributed to local town clerks. This has to be done in person anyway so I end up cruising without any state registration “in full force and effect”.

A friend who researched and wrote about the issue for “Ocean Navigator” magazine was assured by Captain Tom Shipp of the Florida FWC, Department of Law Enforcement, Boating and Waterways, that: "A vessel, federally documented or not, that is not covered by a registration from another state or by the U.S.C.G. in a state without a federally approved numbering system, is not provided that 90 day reciprocity time and would need to register with DHSMV."

I called the Nassau County Tax office in Florida to inquire about obtaining a Sojourner’s Permit so that I could take my vessel into Florida legally. Tina told me that I was covered by the 90 day grace period as a documented vessel so they did not want to issue the permit until it was clear that I needed it. I was told to apply after about ten weeks in state if it appeared I would be staying longer.

These two opinions are in direct conflict. I sent an inquiry to FWC and they have not responded. I understand that this is also an issue for vessels from MA and SC. As we both know, the opinion that really matters is that of the law enforcement officer who boards your boat. I’ve already had a long and uncomfortable experience with police in MD explaining why I couldn’t produce any state paperwork for my vessel and why my tax decals were expired.

It seems to me that this problem could be resolved with the following interpretation:

Maine chooses not to spend money on a system essentially duplicating the Federal documentation. The vessel’s ownership has been established by the Federal Government and Maine can easily look up my address and vessel particulars online. The state chooses not to tax my vessel but has given local government the authority to do so. Therefore, for state purposes, my Federal Documentation constitutes a “state registration in full force and effect” as far as the state of Maine in concerned.

What is lacking in the situation is Main’s formal recognition of this. You can imagine how far I would get trying to explain this theory to a law enforcement officer in Florida. I came very close to having my boat seized in Maryland. What boater’s like myself need is a piece of paper signed by someone that they can show to a (usually) semi-informed boarding officer. I doubt that I am going to get anything like that from the FL FWC but a letter from the state of Maine saying that they consider the federal document equivalent to a state registration might go a long way toward showing that I am allowed to be in FL waters for up to 90 days.

I was about to contact the state of Maine to ask if I could get such a letter. However, the way things usually work, the answer to an individual such as myself is likely to be, “No”. Once that is on the record, it will probably become precedent and be backed up. BoatUS, on the other hand, is far more likely to get an affirmative answer. I would not want to mess it up for other Maine cruisers by pursuing this myself. So, I thought I should touch base with you about the issue.

Regards,
Roger Long

 
Feb 6, 2009
258
Hunter 40 Camano Island
welcome to Flor-exico.

Even worse if the boat was registered at one time in Florida with a previous owner.
 
Nov 6, 2006
9,884
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
Similar stuff in Louisiana. The state passed a law requiring registration for documented boats. Law says to have the Louisiana numbers on the bow as a small powerboat would. Feds say it is illegal to display numbers on documented vessels. I stirred up some stuff by writing to the local newspaper and the director of the Wildlife and Fisheries wrote back to the newspaper saying how numbers would not be required but the registration decal must be displayed. I have a copy of that in my boat papers in the event I have trouble with local enforcement since the law still does not have a provision for documented vessels. Since Florida has gotten strange about registration, I make sure all that stuff is in the boat before heading there.
 

567mft

.
Sep 30, 2005
1
jensen marine cal 29 chicago
Similar in Illinois, you still have to register, but only have to display the state decal, no numbers. They just want the money. But I do get an official registration certificate.
 
Nov 22, 2008
3,562
Endeavour 32 Portland, Maine
Update:

I received both an email and phone call from Dave Kennedy. BoatUS is great, these folks work hard for us and are very responsive.

Dave emailed the fellow in charge of boat registrations in Maine and was told exactly the opposite thing that I was told by someone farther down the ladder. Maine will not prevent me from registering without surrendering my USCG document. I have sent an email inquiring how to do this since the people I would normally contact have told me that I can’t.

The fellow in Maine also told Kennedy that I could pay my local excise tax and obtain new decals by mail as early as December 1 of the previous year so that I was not in the position of cruising in the south with expired ME stickers on the bow as bait for every LEO that passes.

I called the city treasurer’s office of my legal address and was told that I could not pay and receive new decals by mail. I persisted and explained my situation and was bumped the next rung up the ladder to someone who said that I could do it by mail since they have the copy of my still valid document from last year. However, they have not yet received the 2015 decals which typically arrive in late February or early March. More right hand vs left hand. However, the treasurer did take my phone number and promised to call me just as soon as the decals arrive so I can pay by credit card and have them mailed to me.

In any event, I am hopeful of having a ME state registration soon to pull out during “Show me your papers.”, boardings.

As it happens, Mr. Kennedy is meeting today with a top person from the FL FWC and will try to get a formal clarification as to whether USCG Documentation alone entitles me to operate in FL for the 90 day grace period. A verbal opinion about that and a quarter won’t get me a cup of coffee with a FWC officer in the state but, if the answer is affirmative, I will pursue getting a written opinion from FL that I can show to FWC boarders.

Stay tuned to this channel for further developments.

Roger

While I was writing this, the following email arrived from Maine:

Hi Mr. Long,

You can indeed register your boat in Maine even though it is documented. Whoever you spoke to in our office was mistaken. All you have to do is go into the town of Bath and they can do it for you. They may agree to do the registration via mail for you. I looked up your boat (12 TGG) in our system and it is there with no problems. They have the 2015 boat registration materials in their office and have had them since prior to December 1st. Please let me know if there are other questions. Best regards, Bill.


 
Nov 7, 2012
678
1978 Catalina 30 Wilbur-by-the-Sea
Lots of hand ringing here. The pure volume of transient traffic in Florida makes me think this would only be an issue if you decided to stay in one spot for a year or so with no current paperwork from any agency. As long as you are documented someplace, don't direct discharge and have the right gear you will be fine.
 
Nov 22, 2008
3,562
Endeavour 32 Portland, Maine
Lots of hand ringing here.
That's my job here, wringing my hands for the rest of you.

The pure volume of transient traffic in Florida makes me think this would only be an issue if you decided to stay in one spot for a year or so with no current paperwork from any agency.
Oh sure. And, in reality, I would (and may) just head down into FL without worrying to much. However, it's nice to know you are fully legal when the blue lights flash or that boat you thought was just a close passing jackass suddenly pulls alongside, grabs the lifelines, and yells to shut down your engines.

As long as you are documented someplace, don't direct discharge and have the right gear you will be fine.
Not according to the top FWC guy. Read above if you didn't.

Did you read about my experience in much more civilized MD? This could have gone quite differently.

http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=161267&#post1107210

As a former pilot and law abiding boater, I believe having your ship's papers in order is an important part of cruising. Dotting all the t's and crossing all the i's is good practice for going abroad.
 
Nov 22, 2008
3,562
Endeavour 32 Portland, Maine
I have finished with the very helpful Deputy Tax Collector in my hometown and will shortly be receiving a ME number (which I can't actually put on the boat due to Federal law), the same paperwork I would with a ME registration in absence of documentation, and an entry in the ME database. The state excise tax decals will be sent to me when the city gets them in a couple months. In the meantime, I will have the state registration to show any FL FWC cops and be able to cruise for 90 days in FL.

After all this, about 12 hours of phone calls and emails, I guess I'd better go to FL just to make it all worth while. I do like the portion of the state down to St. Augustine and love the St. Johns River and Green Cove Springs. Friends will be there attending to their hauled and stored boat early in February so we will probably go down to help and meet up with them.

Florida, here we come!
 
Jan 28, 2013
4
Nauticat 33 South Freeport, Maine
Roger,
I read with interest your posts as well as replies from others. I have asked numerous people about this and also get conflicting answers. Your follow through seems to provide the most definitive answers yet.

Before we left Maine this fall we made arrangements with our town tax office to expedite a new excise sticker For whenever they arrived. We also corresponded by email and I copied and carried the email in documentation stating they would call when stickers arrived in early 2015. I then did get a call and email as soon as the new stickers arrived.

I believe boatUS could be of significant help in finding a, perhaps less expensive, remedy to the registration issue.
Regards,
 
Nov 22, 2008
3,562
Endeavour 32 Portland, Maine
Before we left Maine this fall we made arrangements with our town tax office to expedite a new excise sticker For whenever they arrived. We also corresponded by email and I copied and carried the email in documentation stating they would call when stickers arrived.
That also address the real issue which is to have something in writing to show a boarding officer that you are a Maine vessel. The full registration only cost me about ten bucks more than the excise tax I have to pay anyway so seems worth it to have a formal document.

If a FWC officer should want to verify your ME registration by calling Maine, the state will know nothing about your boat which could cause you some additional time and hassle to get sorted out. With the full registration, the Maine counterpart to the FWC will tell them, "Yes, ME number ME ## ## and everything is in order." You can also get the full registration paperwork as early as Dec 1 which helps with the decal delay problem.
 
Jan 28, 2013
4
Nauticat 33 South Freeport, Maine
That also address the real issue which is to have something in writing to show a boarding officer that you are a Maine vessel. The full registration only cost me about ten bucks more than the excise tax I have to pay anyway so seems worth it to have a formal document.

If a FWC officer should want to verify your ME registration by calling Maine, the state will know nothing about your boat which could cause you some additional time and hassle to get sorted out. With the full registration, the Maine counterpart to the FWC will tell them, "Yes, ME number ME ## ## and everything is in order." You can also get the full registration paperwork as early as Dec 1 which helps with the decal delay problem.
$10 boat registration is pretty cheap insurance! I thought it was significantly more than that. This sounds like a good plan: apply a registration sticker and excise sticker, carry email correspondence re next year sticker and remain as polite as possible.
 
Jan 28, 2013
4
Nauticat 33 South Freeport, Maine
Maine State Registration for documented vessel

My town folks figured out our boat registration will be $27 (plus the excise).
I'm ok with that. It is still cheap insurance for travel, and I know $ is divided between marine patrol and inland fisheries and wildlife.

I do think the cost will grow substantially for anyone with a larger boat or larger engine. The registration fee is calculated upon a formula that considers LOA, age of vessel, and engine HP.

It would be interesting to find out how other states handle this.