I recently attended a small boat show. One of the vendors and I got into a conversation about the inability of the Catalina 22 to sustain safe sailing in any real salt water environment. Kind of curious if anyone out there could share their adventures of sailing off the coast or even inside?
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What if?
I sail a 1979 Catalina 22 and I am new to sailing. Last weekend I was sailing in Biscayne Bay Florida and it was absolutely beautiful. I was going maybe 3 knots under jib alone (too lazy to put up the main by myself) and the little boat was happily bouncing along as the bay was "pleasantly" choppy. Several times the li'l boat bounced down hard after coming off a wave. No harm done and it was fun....but... What if the 550# keel kept going down when the boat was rising on the next wave? Having read some of the previous posts, I am under the impression that the heads of the keel boats will snap off without warning and certainly many bolts have sheared off when the boat owner tried to remove them for inspection. Also, older production boats, like mine, have the straight through hull fittings held tenuously by a glass/epoxy bond! Certainly, if you try to turn the valves attached to these through hulls without a backup wrench in place, the glass/epoxy bond will shear. The absolute minimum is a annoying leak. I have read (not sure where) about a scary scenario that sank a Cat 22. The risk of through hull failure from the toilet inlet and/or discharge pipes when the boat slams down off a wave is very possible. The force of air compressed in the through hull pipe could be enough to break free the pipe from its epoxy bond (since there is no flange). Water comes in fast and boat sinks. If you were to get caught in some moderate seas off the coast, the forces on a Cat 22 swing keel system might be magnified enough to cause a failure. Likewise for unflanged through hull fittings. These are just some thoughts to get the thread started.
I sail a 1979 Catalina 22 and I am new to sailing. Last weekend I was sailing in Biscayne Bay Florida and it was absolutely beautiful. I was going maybe 3 knots under jib alone (too lazy to put up the main by myself) and the little boat was happily bouncing along as the bay was "pleasantly" choppy. Several times the li'l boat bounced down hard after coming off a wave. No harm done and it was fun....but... What if the 550# keel kept going down when the boat was rising on the next wave? Having read some of the previous posts, I am under the impression that the heads of the keel boats will snap off without warning and certainly many bolts have sheared off when the boat owner tried to remove them for inspection. Also, older production boats, like mine, have the straight through hull fittings held tenuously by a glass/epoxy bond! Certainly, if you try to turn the valves attached to these through hulls without a backup wrench in place, the glass/epoxy bond will shear. The absolute minimum is a annoying leak. I have read (not sure where) about a scary scenario that sank a Cat 22. The risk of through hull failure from the toilet inlet and/or discharge pipes when the boat slams down off a wave is very possible. The force of air compressed in the through hull pipe could be enough to break free the pipe from its epoxy bond (since there is no flange). Water comes in fast and boat sinks. If you were to get caught in some moderate seas off the coast, the forces on a Cat 22 swing keel system might be magnified enough to cause a failure. Likewise for unflanged through hull fittings. These are just some thoughts to get the thread started.
Reality...
Hi H.M. When I bought my 28 yr. old Cat, I had mega plans for trailering it from Phoenix to CA to do some blue water sailing - specifically to Catalina Island, Mexico, etc. Heard salt water is hell on the keel & etc. I'm not very experienced (although I cruised the Carribbean extensively as a kid- I faced up to reality after 20 years no sailing since....) Anyway, I figure my Cat 22's great at the lake, but joined a local sailing club that charters around southern CA, Tahiti & etc. for great group rates. This way, I can enjoy the Cat locally, and vacation on the blue waters with some more experienced sailors, and more accomodating vessels (SHOWERS! and cheap rates!) when venturing to the ocean. Maybe there's a club like that in N.C.. All the more respect for you if you go for it in your Cat 22, & enjoy it!(keep us posted!) Just my "2 cents".... Happy Sailing! Lisa
Hi H.M. When I bought my 28 yr. old Cat, I had mega plans for trailering it from Phoenix to CA to do some blue water sailing - specifically to Catalina Island, Mexico, etc. Heard salt water is hell on the keel & etc. I'm not very experienced (although I cruised the Carribbean extensively as a kid- I faced up to reality after 20 years no sailing since....) Anyway, I figure my Cat 22's great at the lake, but joined a local sailing club that charters around southern CA, Tahiti & etc. for great group rates. This way, I can enjoy the Cat locally, and vacation on the blue waters with some more experienced sailors, and more accomodating vessels (SHOWERS! and cheap rates!) when venturing to the ocean. Maybe there's a club like that in N.C.. All the more respect for you if you go for it in your Cat 22, & enjoy it!(keep us posted!) Just my "2 cents".... Happy Sailing! Lisa
C-22 in open water
Like I said in a related thread, I used to sail a C-22 in the Pacific Ocean, out to Catalina Island, and was caught in some hairy conditions a few times. When I was a quivering mass of fear and panic on the cockpit sole, the boat stood up and took care of both of us. It's very unlikely you could lose the swing keel altogether, although it can happen, (did to a friend of mine, fortunatly near the ramp) I had complete confidence in it. Larry W.
Like I said in a related thread, I used to sail a C-22 in the Pacific Ocean, out to Catalina Island, and was caught in some hairy conditions a few times. When I was a quivering mass of fear and panic on the cockpit sole, the boat stood up and took care of both of us. It's very unlikely you could lose the swing keel altogether, although it can happen, (did to a friend of mine, fortunatly near the ramp) I had complete confidence in it. Larry W.
re: Open Waters
It seems to me that if you sail the Catalina 22 how it was designed to be sailed you should be fine. I would not take my too far away for the land. I would sail it to Catalina Island in good weather. As for salt water, there are lots of Catalina 22's on the great salt lake (which is more salty than the ocean)-you just need to maintaing them. They are great boats for weekends or day sailing.
It seems to me that if you sail the Catalina 22 how it was designed to be sailed you should be fine. I would not take my too far away for the land. I would sail it to Catalina Island in good weather. As for salt water, there are lots of Catalina 22's on the great salt lake (which is more salty than the ocean)-you just need to maintaing them. They are great boats for weekends or day sailing.
C22 off shore
I own one of the new MKlls and have raced it in SanFrancisco Bay and off shore from the time I bought it in 98...Mine is a fixed fin keel and not a swing unit.... My agenda for the year is to do the Singlehanded Long-Pac race with a course 200 miles off the north coast of California.... I'm also planning to do the SSS Trans-Pac..... I think you could call that off-shore..
I own one of the new MKlls and have raced it in SanFrancisco Bay and off shore from the time I bought it in 98...Mine is a fixed fin keel and not a swing unit.... My agenda for the year is to do the Singlehanded Long-Pac race with a course 200 miles off the north coast of California.... I'm also planning to do the SSS Trans-Pac..... I think you could call that off-shore..
Maybe on the Older Models
Yes maybe on the older models, but remember, "Preventive Maintence" (sp?) is the KEY OPERATIVE WORD HERE. If your 22 regardless of age is properly maintained and all those fittings checked and or replaced with the new type and new methods, and this includes the keel anmd the stainless steel bolts and receiver bushings or nuts replaced there should never be a worry about all of a sudden you are missing your keel just to find out you are dragging it back by the stern with the cable getting in the way of your tiller and believe me if you have your sails set and that does occur, you will know it!!!!!! Now I have to tell you for someone like me who has sailed a number of different yachts, boats, dinghy's etc anyone who loses a keel like this, has not performed the PREVENTIVE MAINTENCE that is required by Catalina , or Calatina Direct in their handbook. I have seen the heads of the bolts break off on some of the older models because of the lack of this entirely for a period of YEARS !!!!! Decades infact. But even a sheared off bolt is not going to allow that keel to drop off into the ocean or lake or river. You will in fact have a VERY noticable loss of headway, stability and sloppiness BEFORE that ever comes to pass. It will be as if you ran aground, the boat will lurch to the winds leeward side and yes in this case you could have a knockdown situation. Lets face it folks, Catalina Direct makes a retrofit kit to install ALL new parts in addition to installing bushings on either side of the keel to keep it from knocking around while on the ocean. It makes it much more stable by holding the keel solidly. The bushings going between the keel and sides of the trunk,slid onto the larger hanger pin. I have sailed the Pacific Ocean, and the Great Lakes with swing keels and fixed, daggerboards etc, and have to say I have never in 40 years have had anything happen like what has been described. To the Fellow who is into the Racing the Mark II I say GO GET EM !!!!! So for those of you who maintain your boats go for the ocean. For those of you who do not BEWARE !!!!! Happy Sailing, Dave
Yes maybe on the older models, but remember, "Preventive Maintence" (sp?) is the KEY OPERATIVE WORD HERE. If your 22 regardless of age is properly maintained and all those fittings checked and or replaced with the new type and new methods, and this includes the keel anmd the stainless steel bolts and receiver bushings or nuts replaced there should never be a worry about all of a sudden you are missing your keel just to find out you are dragging it back by the stern with the cable getting in the way of your tiller and believe me if you have your sails set and that does occur, you will know it!!!!!! Now I have to tell you for someone like me who has sailed a number of different yachts, boats, dinghy's etc anyone who loses a keel like this, has not performed the PREVENTIVE MAINTENCE that is required by Catalina , or Calatina Direct in their handbook. I have seen the heads of the bolts break off on some of the older models because of the lack of this entirely for a period of YEARS !!!!! Decades infact. But even a sheared off bolt is not going to allow that keel to drop off into the ocean or lake or river. You will in fact have a VERY noticable loss of headway, stability and sloppiness BEFORE that ever comes to pass. It will be as if you ran aground, the boat will lurch to the winds leeward side and yes in this case you could have a knockdown situation. Lets face it folks, Catalina Direct makes a retrofit kit to install ALL new parts in addition to installing bushings on either side of the keel to keep it from knocking around while on the ocean. It makes it much more stable by holding the keel solidly. The bushings going between the keel and sides of the trunk,slid onto the larger hanger pin. I have sailed the Pacific Ocean, and the Great Lakes with swing keels and fixed, daggerboards etc, and have to say I have never in 40 years have had anything happen like what has been described. To the Fellow who is into the Racing the Mark II I say GO GET EM !!!!! So for those of you who maintain your boats go for the ocean. For those of you who do not BEWARE !!!!! Happy Sailing, Dave
C-22
Would you try to drive a car from North Carolina to San Francisco without a complete check-up? Catalina Yachts are made in So. Cal. just abut 20 miles from the Pacific Ocean, so do you think they might be designed to be used in sea water? I think all the "scary tales" should be analyzed; Swing keel fell off? How corroded was the swing pin/bolt? When was the last time it was checked? Thru hull "blown out"? Was there damage to the hull from trailering or grounding prior to losing thru hull? You can walk around the docks at Marina del Rey, CA and find probably a hundred C-22s both on trailers and in slips and I've seen them out maybe 10 - 12 miles in the San Pedro Channel. I think the C-22 is seaworthy as long as it is maintained properly, and sailed with some forethought(I don't think I'd sail her through a Force 5 Gale).
Would you try to drive a car from North Carolina to San Francisco without a complete check-up? Catalina Yachts are made in So. Cal. just abut 20 miles from the Pacific Ocean, so do you think they might be designed to be used in sea water? I think all the "scary tales" should be analyzed; Swing keel fell off? How corroded was the swing pin/bolt? When was the last time it was checked? Thru hull "blown out"? Was there damage to the hull from trailering or grounding prior to losing thru hull? You can walk around the docks at Marina del Rey, CA and find probably a hundred C-22s both on trailers and in slips and I've seen them out maybe 10 - 12 miles in the San Pedro Channel. I think the C-22 is seaworthy as long as it is maintained properly, and sailed with some forethought(I don't think I'd sail her through a Force 5 Gale).
It All Depends !!
Depending upon your skills and confidence levels, virtually any craft can be used in "open" waters. Think about it, many adventurers have crossed the ocean in various things from kayaks, rowboats, small sailing dingies, etc. Now granted, going out to sea in a small boat is certainly not the ideal or even intelligent thing to try, but it has been done. Sometimes with success, sometimes with tragedy. However, if you use sound judgement as to when and how far out you choose to take your C-22, I dare say you could do it safely, assuming weather and sea conditions are not to drastic. But, bear in mind, ocean sailing is not what the C-22 was designed for, so you're really testing the limits by doing so. If you're really into open-water sailing, then maybe you need a different/bigger boat.
Depending upon your skills and confidence levels, virtually any craft can be used in "open" waters. Think about it, many adventurers have crossed the ocean in various things from kayaks, rowboats, small sailing dingies, etc. Now granted, going out to sea in a small boat is certainly not the ideal or even intelligent thing to try, but it has been done. Sometimes with success, sometimes with tragedy. However, if you use sound judgement as to when and how far out you choose to take your C-22, I dare say you could do it safely, assuming weather and sea conditions are not to drastic. But, bear in mind, ocean sailing is not what the C-22 was designed for, so you're really testing the limits by doing so. If you're really into open-water sailing, then maybe you need a different/bigger boat.
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