Re-rigging without mast removal.

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Rigging replacement, Hunter 49 B&R Fractional, no backstay: Some, perhaps most of you are driven to this by insurance company requirements, Im not, its more a case of due diligence and having it not come down. So if yours is great than 10 years old, how old is it ? I am looking to replace standing rigging without removing the mast, has anyone done this ?. I am interested in comments from anyone who has done this, or had this experience, whether it was a good or bad experience. Im also interested in anyone who has had there mast come down or sustained any damage during this process or subsequently as a result of it. In my case removing the mast will add a significant amount of work and subsequently cost. Im sure I’m not the only one whom has dedicated continuous cable runs up there mast, that can’t /shouldn’t be cut such as analog 12 core Radar cable, full heavy duty (15mm) VHF, AIS, Cell phone cables, all high quality continuous runs. Disconnecting and dropping these is not a 5 min job, in mast furling with continuous furling line, would need to be cut, etc etc.

 

[dlochner]

Standing rigging can be replaced with the mast up, however, it may not be a DIY job. Halyards are used to stabilize the mast and someone either climbs the mast and replaces on shroud at a time or goes up in one of those man lifts used to work on the upper stories of buildings.

 

[jssailem]

On my 35ft CAL, deck stepped mast head rig, I had the mast removed with the guidance of an experienced rigger. We were in a yard with a crane that picked the mast off the boat while near the breakwater.

The rigger climbed the mast and set a strap 2/3rds up the mast this caused the mast to stay vertical when lifted. Once secure hanging from the crane, the standing shrouds/stays were released. The forestay and furler were released and bound to the mast. All the wires were undone a the units and snaked to beneath the mast. As the mast was raised off the base, the wires were hauled up their holes out of the boat from beneath the mast.

Upon finish in the rerigging the procedure was reversed. The electrical cables were dropped through the mast base and attached to a new electrical block that was installed beneath the mast for this purpose. The radar and new VHF cables (uncut) were threaded in through the deck base and then routed through the boat to the hardware at the nav station. This was done to optimize performance.

I know of a Catalina 36 owner who had the standing rigging replaced while the boat was at the dock near the riggers shop. They used the halyards to hold the mast in place while removing one wire at a time. Taking it to their shop building a new wire then taking it to the boat and installing it. This meant multiple climbs up/down the mast but the work was completed in about 3 days to the satisfaction of the owner.

Just a couple of different approaches to a common problem.

 

[marcham]

The time involved in going up/down the mast, if paying a rigger, may outweigh the benefit of keeping the mast in place. Your owner's manual may have rigging information. Ours requires that the diamonds be tensioned on the ground prior to hoisting the mast.
For the long cable runs .... pulling them out with a pull string attached will make reinstallation a relatively simple manoeuvre.

Can't wait for radar manufacturers to adopt a common ethernet standard .... then it's just a matter of having a CAT 6 coupler at the base of the mast....

A coupler in your coax (RG213?) represent about a 1db loss. That's not much considering 100ft of RG213 losses 2.6 db. If you have the cheaper RG58, you've already got 7db loss in 100ft. Your coax is the big db loss, not a coupler at the mast base. Line of sight and corrosion at the antenna connector is usually the LIMFAC for a sailboat's antenna system.

 

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As I recall the VHF cable is something like RG213, I remember it was about the size of my thumb and very stiff and the losses were way down compared to anything else and price was inversely proportional. It took a while to get it right because I can’t deal with heights, so doing the top end was task for someone else and I literally had to train the tech, show him on SWR Meter show him water ingress etc. The cell phone was the same deal and getting those connectors given there size is smaller than the cable, yep that to was a challenge, but it gave me 80k coverage on cell tower, and there is cisco wifi aerial(s) up on the spreaders. The radar is old, so might in fact dump it for a new Ethernet version if I’m forced to take the mast down. Most riggers don’t have a clue about the rig either, which is frustrating, it took nearly 3 years to get it anywhere near right. Even when the boat was delivered new it was wrong and riggers want to run when you tell them , it has prebend and furling main and no backstay, most didn’t know what a lose gauge was, then comes the mandrel for the in mast furller….. ah it just goes on. Actually this is not just about cost saving, because potentially it will be the same, but its about doing the whole job right and once. I used a Filipino in Philippines to do the diagonals. I explained do exactly what I say, take the measurements pictures I ask for and you will be paid 1 month salary for what should take 1 day. It took two days, but he did exactly that. Prebend, rake and tension was great and that’s two people one whom follows instructions and one whom thinks he knows but proves my measurement (me). I real professional should have no drama.

 

[jssailem]

If your focus is low loss coax - strongest signal output, LMR400 cable should be considered.

LMR-400 Coax Cable for High-Performance RF Applications | Times Microwave Systems

LMR 400 50 ohm coax cable with UV Resistant jacket. Great drop-in replacement for RG-8/9913 cables. Designed for antenna feeder jumper assemblies runs requiring a high-performance, flexible, low loss RF cable.

timesmicrowave.com

 

[dlochner]

B&G/Simrad and Garmin do use an ethernet protocol and connectors for data transmission and separate conductors for power. I know the B&G units have both data and power in one cable and I believe the Garmin have 2 cables, one data, one power. All of the electronics are located in the radar dome so there is no RF loss to be concerned about. While the connectors are standard RJ=45s the data is always proprietary.

 

[Screen Saver]

If your focus is low loss coax - strongest signal output, LMR400 cable should be considered.

Ah yes seeing your cable chart John has reminded me the VHF one was LMR400, can remember what the cell one was
Dave : As for Radar my other project Plotter upgrade/integration is coming to an end, but it is Raymarine based, so I will likely be looking for an early digital radar Ethernet based and hopefully that will work with OpenCPN as well. But that is another subject.

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

A coupler in your coax (RG213?) represent about a 1db loss.

don’t know where you got that but it’s not correct - decent quality coax connectors have negligible loss.

I’ve seen tests in which as many as 20 connectors were daisy-chained and there was no loss indicated on a Bird wattmeter.

 

[kbgunn]

The B&R rig is a different beast than a typical bermuda rig. You can check this document starting on page 53.
https://support.seldenmast.com/files/595-540-E.pdf

You'll see that pre-bend is induced in the mast prior to stepping on the deck. The reverse diagonals are under considerable tension and you need mechanical advantage to bend the mast enough to attach these diagonals when properly sized. Halyards and turning blocks are sufficient mechanical advantage with the mast down on saw horses. I would think it would be more difficult with the mast stepped.

The wires should be terminated in the ceiling of the cabin at the base of the mast. There should be a terminal block for lights and instruments along with a barrel connector to disconnect vhf.

 

[Screen Saver]

Yep I hear you. In my world its a bit different. Having replaced the diagonals probably about 4 years ago, I can tell you the prebend is pretty much set in mine now, and in fact I had considerable difficulty removing some of it, because it had too much. So inducing prebend in mine is not a problem when its up, and there is not a lot of load on them according to the loose gauge. And yep the standard electrical connection are terminated as you say, but as stated above I have a number that are not, and the Radar cant be cut. Im now a bit unsure about loses on the RF side given some of the comments here, however getting and maintaining that almost perfect connection if I chop my expensive RF cables is not liable to happen. Some of these very low wattage signals, like cell phone even a small loss has a very significant effect.

 

[Jim_H42]

I have a 1992 Hunter Passage 42 which has a B&R rig with a backstay and masthead jib. I had to remove and repair one of the upper spreaders and did this with the mast in place. I measured all turnbuckles clearences prior to releasing the shrouds and diamonds. The measurements allowed the prebend to be re-established since none of the cables was being changed.

Although it's possible to replace all the cables with the mast insitu, as mentioned earlier, I don't think you'd get the prebend set up correctly unless it's off the boat.

 

[Screen Saver]

Although it's possible to replace all the cables with the mast insitu, as mentioned earlier, I don't think you'd get the prebend set up correctly unless it's off the boat.

Yea this may all become academic as so far the riggers I have approached in Sydney have refused. They will do the forestay but thats it. Sadly heights and me dont agree or I would do it myself, like most other things. However to your point above and you have said what some others have implied, Im not sure of the logic behind this and why one couldn't get the prebend right. I guess when the mast is new and straight, the first time its educed I could see some difficulties, but when its already there, and assuming its not all released at once, Im not sure I see the problem. When I replaced the diagonals it was only then when I took measurements before I started that I became aware the prebend was out, in my case nearly double that of the spec. After the diagonals were done, it took some time to in fact remove some of it and get back to within spec. Also obviously when you do it on the ground and then stand it up and begin to tension up the forestay etc, clearly this can change the prebend, resulting in a need to re-establish it.

 

[artboas]

Yea this may all become academic as so far the riggers I have approached in Sydney have refused. They will do the forestay but thats it. Sadly heights and me dont agree or I would do it myself, like most other things. However to your point above and you have said what some others have implied, Im not sure of the logic behind this and why one couldn't get the prebend right. I guess when the mast is new and straight, the first time its educed I could see some difficulties, but when its already there, and assuming its not all released at once, Im not sure I see the problem. When I replaced the diagonals it was only then when I took measurements before I started that I became aware the prebend was out, in my case nearly double that of the spec. After the diagonals were done, it took some time to in fact remove some of it and get back to within spec. Also obviously when you do it on the ground and then stand it up and begin to tension up the forestay etc, clearly this can change the prebend, resulting in a need to re-establish it.

Pull the rig.
The amount of stress and uncertainty involved with doing this rig up is far outweighed by a relaxed environment with everything horizontal.
The antenna should have an 831SP (PL 259) at the base inside the closet.
As well, the radar cable likely has some sort of terminal block. The analog radar cable was nowhere near long enough to go from the spreaders to the nav area
As well, when your rig is down, consider upgrading the lighting to LED.

The 49 rig is substantial, and needs to be treated with respect. A full running rigging swap is a big job. Take it slow, and do everything very safely

 

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Yea agreed there is mental stress. However there is a lot less work. Plus the rigger/company doesnt have you over a barrel. Both antenna's are full length cables with no connections in the middle. The Radar defiantly is full length one piece mast to cockpit and it cant be anything else. There is terminal block in the roof of the master cabin in the wardrobe for sure, but it only has basics, Anchor light steaming light, navigates ( in my case I have LED Tri-light) a horn and thats about it. But its not just these, there are all the ropes as well, the continuous furling line, out haul etc, There is a good 2 days work getting all of this out, pulling mouse lines etc Some of the stories I have herd about people pulling masts out where the job quadrupled in price. Thye get to point where they now want to totally refurbish every block, rivet, slide, gear etc and once its out on their wharf your done. If was not so afraid of heights I would do it myself like everything else. Heights are my one fear sadly.

 

[dkinzer]

The Radar defiantly is full length one piece mast to cockpit and it cant be anything else.

I don't know which radar you're referring to but the Raymarine RD148D on my 2007 41AC uses ordinary Cat-5 Ethernet cable plus power/ground. The radar was put in by a previous owner and the installation has a terminal block for the power/ground below the mast base (above the forward cabin ceiling) and there is also an RJ-45 coupler (similar to the one in the attached photo) for the Ethernet. If installed correctly such a coupler does not interfere with the Ethernet traffic in any way.

 

[Screen Saver]

Yea I was in IT, so what you're talking about is an Ethernet/digital radar, these can be joined because the signal is basically a digital or a computer network signal. It use between 4 and 6 wires and they can be cut and joined many ways. The connector you show if its not gold leafs, and some arent, then it will fail and be hard to find. If its gold leaf, it should last fine. That Radar you have would not have been standard. My hunter is 2008 so it has an analog RD424 which uses a cable like this Raymarine/Raytheon ANALOG RADAR CABLE - 14METERS f/M92652 92652-S RD424 - Max Marine Electronics If you zoom in on the picture your will see an eight-way connector in addition to the other 4 bigger wires. So total of 12. That in itself is not a problem,. However one of those thin wires you see which are about the size of a match is a coaxle analog data signal carries two wires one center core in a shield. So these wires are about 1/2 the size of a match including the covering. That signal is much lower than your Ethernet digital Data signal, which is why they shield it. These cables are made up to about 25m, no one will be cutting these and joining them. The cable would need to be diconnected from the radar, whihc of course can be done, along with the cell phone aerail at the top of the mast. The VHF one can be cut and have connectors, but thats not ideal either. Lights are already on a terminal block so no problem there. Windex is not but it could be. Now of course my doubled ended main sheet needs to be removed, my endless !! furling line needs to be cut, then respliced, topping lift, vang. halyards, HF aerial, mainsail, jib, etc etc. Yea quite honestly that is madness unless you know you have Maijor issues on the mast somewhere. Excluding a large swell from some big cruiser, or gails, I would almost bet that you could take of any one piece of wire (excluding the forestay) and the mast would stay standing. Even if you took a capshroud off, the D1 (half way down) would hold it up. Clearly you would not rely in that but masts tend to break around the first cross tree or above and boom goseneck. I have yet to find one example of a mast coming down as a result of doing it in place, one at a time. I'm sure its probably happened because their supporting lines came lose or they took them all off at once and tried to support it with lines.