Planing My MacGregor 26D

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Dan McGuire

Beating a Dead Horse

I am not sure how those graphics proved or disproved. One thing for sure, when you have a slope, the water will run downhill.
 
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Dan McGuire

Beating a Dead Horse

I am not sure how those graphics proved or disproved. One thing for sure, when you have a slope, the water will run downhill.
 
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Ramblin' Rod - Mac 26D - SeaQuell

Not Beating Anything

Personally, I never get tired of learning new things about sailing. RE: Water running down hill. Doesn't happen in a non-breaking wave. Does in a breaking wave. That's why I made the distinction right from the get-go.
 
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Gregg

Well the 579's have it

You have 580 views on your post. You should consider yourself happily read. I have been a part of the forums for a number of months, and I have yet to see a singlr post grasp this many views and/or replies. Way to go John!!!! I think if you keep this up..... You might win the new boat that Macgregorowners.com is giving away:) Good topic. I could only hope that someday I get the response that you do with one of my postings. Happy Holidays!!!!
 
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Dan McGuire

Beating Dead Horse Horses

Re: Dead Horses. I was referring to the thread and the fact that the discussion is going around in circles. Thus the net result is we are not going anywhere. Re: There is nothing magic about a wave. The water on the face of that wave will flow downhill. The speed of the flow is probably less than the speed of the wave, but a boat in that flow will be helped. One more time. There has to be a reason for why the boat is able to exceed hull speed. To me the water flow within the wave is the key. I have yet to hear another logical explanation. This is PROBABLY my last response to this thread because like I said, we aren't getting anywhere. It is like a long distance chess game. Ultimately there is a result, but to me, it is a very painful process. BTW. The owners have come up with a thread on waves. What a coincidence. Or was it triggered by this thread? I especially enjoy Tsunamis.
 
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Ramblin' Rod - Mac 26D - SeaQuell

Dan, the deceased equine thumper

Re: There is nothing magic about a wave. The water on the face of that wave will flow downhill. Response: Both of the simulations I have posted clearly show that this statement is not true. The water on the surface of the wave only flows when the wave breaks. We have not been talking aobut breaking waves. RE: The speed of the flow is probably less than the speed of the wave, but a boat in that flow will be helped. Response: Again, both of the simulations posted from trusted, credible sources clearly demonstrate that their is no current (flow) associated with a non-breaking wave. RE: One more time. There has to be a reason for why the boat is able to exceed hull speed. Response: And for the umpteenth time, it is due to wave modulation to a point, and then the removal of the speed limiting bow wave that enables a dsiplacement hulled boat to surf. RE: To me the water flow within the wave is the key. Response: Again, there is no flow. RE: I have yet to hear another logical explanation. Response: Then you are clearly not listening. Wave modulation and bow wave removal. RE: This is PROBABLY my last response to this thread because like I said, we aren't getting anywhere. Repsonse: Apparently not. RE: BTW. The owners have come up with a thread on waves. What a coincidence. Or was it triggered by this thread? I especially enjoy Tsunamis. Response: Cool. Where are "The Owners"
 
May 18, 2004
386
- - Baltimore
My lake, my rules

We never got anywhere with polypropylene running rigging, did we? Or the marine applications of red and white oak, despite centuries of English shipbuilding and botanical microscopic scientific evidence that supports it. And we aren't going to get anywhere with surfing a displacement hull either. Its not about horses dying, its about leading them to water.
 
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Gregg

Red vs. White

If it comes to wood on a boat.... I prefer teak. It is durable, holds its color, and I have a ton of it. I think mahogony would be a better choice of woods, but it is pretty pricey. And I think Oak is more readily available, but teak is still the best for boats.
 
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Carl

Oak

I'm replacing the rear cabin panel with 3/4 red oak plywood. The cheap plywood with paper (aka sponge) backing was starting to buckle under the weight of the keel and deck. Clearly the Mac people were trying to save dollars, but ultimately the wood was inappropriate for the keel/deck load. The original load capacity was maybe 500 lbs total with displacement. My new load is about 2500.. I'm an over-kill kind of guy. Looks really good with the nice stain and poly varnish I sealed it with. I'm finishing up all the original wood pieces with the same treatment. I wouldn't recommed this treatment if you plan on getting the wood wet with sea water a lot, do not cover your boat in the summer, or if you keep the boat in the water.. IMHO
 
Jun 5, 2004
72
- - Pensacola, Fl
Who woulda thought

that such a question could have generated so many responses of such a varied nature. But I have enjoyed reading most of them. Been enlightened, confused, tickled, and then confused again. I have the X which is a planing hull which of course means it will get up on top of the water and skim across it. I had a Hunter which was a displacement hull and it always just pushed thru the water in a depression. I never really thought of surfing as a sailing term. I have a question about the flow of a wave for Ramblin' Rod. If the water in a wave has only vertical movement, what causes each succeeding waves vertical movement? Is every vertical movement independent within each wave? Is it like a "wave" at the ball, park where a person stands up and sits down and the continuation of the wave is dependent on the next person's decision to stand up or remain seated, which he is free to do either. How does wave action result in water flowing onto the bank even if the wave never breaks? I love whitewater canoeing. Surfing is a term used in this sport, and even though I do it, I don't understand the dynamics. Waves break upstream against the flow but the wave never moves and the canoe / kayak rides on the upstream flow without moving. Another mystery is haystacks or standing waves which never appear to move laterally at all. I love sailing and canoeing and I accept the water dynamics involved in both, but don't really understand either completely. Isn't hull speed just an approximation, so who can say when hull speed has been exceeded? Sounds oxymoronic to me since hull speed is (or should be) however fast any particular power source will move the hull at any given time.
 
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Ramblin' Rod - Mac 26D - SeaQuell

Hey Billy, Ya Ever Been To Sea?

RE: If the water in a wave has only vertical movement, what causes each succeeding waves vertical movement? Response: Well we've already advanced to elliptical particle motion at the surface, but for simplicity we can continue to talk abotu the vertical component. RE: Is every vertical movement independent within each wave? Is it like a "wave" at the ball, park where a person stands up and sits down and the continuation of the wave is dependent on the next person's decision to stand up or remain seated, which he is free to do either. Response: While a water wave is very similar to the stadium wave, the water molecules have a tendency to want to stick together, whereas the people at the stadium are truly independent. RE: How does wave action result in water flowing onto the bank even if the wave never breaks? Response: When a wave comes ashore, it does break. A wave break when the water depth diminishes to some very specific proportion of the wave height. A wave also breaks when it reaches its maximum significant height in relation to period. I'd have to look it up to give the specifics, but that's the just of it as memory serves. RE: I love whitewater canoeing. Surfing is a term used in this sport, and even though I do it, I don't understand the dynamics. Waves break upstream against the flow but the wave never moves and the canoe / kayak rides on the upstream flow without moving. Another mystery is haystacks or standing waves which never appear to move laterally at all. Response: We've seen some major haystacks trying to sail in during an ebb tide through Pensacola Pass. Full sail up and drawing close-hauled in 10 knots. We were going about 1/2 knot backwards until I started up the motor. RE: I love sailing and canoeing and I accept the water dynamics involved in both, but don't really understand either completely. Response: Same here. RE: Isn't hull speed just an approximation, so who can say when hull speed has been exceeded? Sounds oxymoronic to me since hull speed is (or should be) however fast any particular power source will move the hull at any given time. Response: The formula for theoretical hull speed (THS) is very specific. 1.34 times the sqare root of LWL. For a Mac 26D this is 7.4 mph. In reality, if you looked at a curve with power plotted against speed (through water), you would find that it rose in a gentle curve, and then sharply curved at THS and then became pretty much vertical (increase power all you want but speed remains constant). In other words, the THS formula produces a point on the knee of the curve. After THS, you can still increase speed somewhat, but the power requirement increases exponentially for a very small increase in speed. The laws of diminishing returns apply very sharply at this point.
 
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Dan McGuire

Against My Better Judgement

The biggest mystery you will find in this response, is why am I bothering? For one thing Rod’s response to Billy bothered me for a couple of reasons. First what does the title, “Hey Billy, ya ever been to sea?” imply? Does it mean that if you haven’t been to sea that you don’t have good sense? The second thing about Rod’s response was that in spite of the fact that you used in excess of 500 words, you failed to actually explain anything. I can almost make an exception to his explanation on hull speed. The biggest problem with the explanation is that there are other formulas for hull speeds that will provide a different answer. I would like to concentrate my response on whether there is forward motion of the water on the face of the wave. Let me go over most of your (Rod’s) argument. Reference the graphics in your 12/12 4:49PM response. The first is an link which shows moving waves and a stationary rotor. If you note, part of the time the rotor is not in the water. What, I believe, the graphic is trying to show is that the rotor travels with the wave. This being the case, there is clearly forward motion of the water on the face of the wave. If you don’t assume that the rotor is moving forward with the wave, the graphic makes absolutely no sense. The second link shows a number of lines with barbs on them. If you will look at an individual barb, you will notice that it is moving in a rotary motion, which shows forward motion of the water. There is no net transport of the water, however, there is a forward motion of the water on the surface of the wave. The other argument was “that it simply is not true”, which is not an explanation. Now just a short note in response to John, “My Lake, My Rules”. For some of you, who may not remember, some time ago, I started a thread on ways to save money while sailing. It finally ended up in an argument about line. I used, and still do use, inexpensive polypropylene line from Home Depot and other discount hardwares. One of the parts of the discussion came down to why I would want to use polypropylene line. If you will take a look at Western Marine, you will find that a number of expensive lines such as Regatta and Sta-Set use polypropylene. I believe there are several differences between, the expensive line and the less expensive line. The first is quality. I sometimes find flaws. Another is the line is usually not as soft. There are probably others including the little anchor on the package, which automatically adds 100% to the retail cost. The strength of the less expensive lines is more than adequate and since I am never out of sight of land, on my lake, I don’t believe it is a threat to myself or the other boaters if a halyard or sheet breaks. It is a minor inconvenience. The other “My Lake, My Rules” issue is red oak. If you check references on red oak, you will find that it has no natural decay resistance. However, for some reason, much of it has lasted for many years. Red oak is the most common hardwood. It has been used for wooden plows, wooden horse pulled wagons and wagon wheels. I will have to admit that I just replaced the wooden handles on an old plow. I found the old plow in the woods buried under leaves and other debris. I have an old wagon and several wooden wheels in my yard, which are easily over a half century old and I was told they were red oak.. I am not sure what kind of unnatural treatment, those pieces of wood received when they were new. They are well weathered, but solid. I revarnish the wood trim on my boat about every two years. I am pulling my boat out of this water this spring. I will remove all of the wood trim (red oak) and revarnish it. I am not doing this because the wood is degrading. I am doing it because the varnish is starting to peal. Bottom line. I like the appearance of red oak, it is inexpensive in this area and, if protected, it will last for many years. Darn, I let that word “inexpensive” creep in again.
 
Jun 5, 2004
72
- - Pensacola, Fl
Hay Dan, I love your lakes.

And I have been to sea. Not way way out into the sea. But out where you can't see land. I just watched the waves roll by and didn't worry about whether or not they were going anywhere or not. Think I'll just continue to look at them like that, unless they get so big as to be a danger. Those two Arkansas lakes are beautiful and so is Lake Ouachita. I love visiting Eureka Springs. About that formula. When you have as many variables as sailing has, a "very specific formula" with no regard for any variables seems doomed to be at least suspect. According to that formula with its absolute values, my 26X can't exceed 8 knots.
 
May 18, 2004
386
- - Baltimore
C'mon Dan

Say something nice. Its kinda pointless if the only valid opinions are yours irregardless. All other viewpoints just seem to get dismissed without merit. When these past and present discussions don't add a single thing to your thinking, you blame others for not providing irrefutable proof on your terms. Is that the point of a forum? What I took issue with was recommending poly on an open forum with no conditions or qualifiers. At least you repeat your rationale for it in the context of your own use now, but still exclude all the pertinent information offered about it from others. Apparently my objection was that its less expensive. (?) Any hardwood, and especially any oak, will be fine for trim if kept protected. Wagonwheels, etc. had a chance to dry out or be caked with mud. Its like galvanizing, it works in the air where it can dry out and prevent rust; put it in salt water and its a sacrificial zinc. Thats why they don't make galvanized keels. And thats why no boatbuilder uses or advertises red oak. Even canoe makers don't use it. And thats why its not considered a marine wood. That doesn't mean you can't use it on your boat successfully, just don't dis all contrary information based on your prediliction. It sounds like because you were not familiar with the word 'surfing' but are familiar with 'planing', your unswerving conclusion is that surfing must be planing, made possible by some special wave mechanics. I don't pretend to be a wave scientist, but I can see the gulls sitting in the water are not moving like the boat is. And when I swim out beyond the surfline at Ocean City, I usually get farther from shore rather than closer (the returning undertow has a flow, the waves don't seem to have much until they break). And when I watch surfers, they are trying to get near breaking waves, or else mostly 'falling down the side' of a wave, using a vehicle designed to plane and a little water surface tension. If other posters asked you questions, and then critiqued and rejected every well-meant comment and reasoned explanation, how long would you consider it a useful dialogue?
 
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Dan McGuire

To John with Love

John. First your comment, "All other viewpoints just seem to get dismissed without merit". I was thinking the same thing about you and Rod, when I wrote my last response. As for saying something nice, I seem to remember you saying something about “leading a horse to water”. I don't know how to say I disagree without saying something which might possibly offend. I go back over my posts to try to make sure that I have not offended unnecessarily. I do not know how to say "you did not actually explain anything" without saying "you did not actually explain anything". As for “irrefutable proof”. I am having problems with the irrefutable proof part. My point is that you and Rod have not provided irrefutable proof. I have to admit that my comment to Rod about hull speed was a cheap shot. He failed to mention that he was talking about a displacement hull or even sailboats except where he calculated the hull speed for a MAC 26. As for that I am misleading all of these ignorant sailors out here by recommending inferior products. You have to be kidding. First of all I don't think I have ever said, "hey you guys really ought to try this and you don’t even need to think about it". I many cases I have said “I am an engineer, and I feel comfortable to make judgements like this for my own boat and if you don't feel comfortable, then don't”. I believe the readers of this forum are smart enough to make their own conclusions. At a very minimum they will get contrary opinions. Red oak is commonly used in this area. So far I have had no bad experiences, which say I should discontinue its use. Regardlesss, it is very inexpensive and I can replace it at low cost. It is not a safety issue. What is it you do not understand about polypropylene? IT IS USED IN EXPENSIVE LINES. JUST THE FACT THAT IT IS POLYPROPYLENE DOES NOT MAKE IT INFERIOR. I EXPLAINED WHY I THINK THE LESS EXPENSIVE BRANDS ARE INFERIOR TO THE MORE EXPENSIVE BRANDS. The less expensive lines suit my purposes. Finally. I only implied that I thought surfing was the same as planning early in my posts, when I was asking my original question. After that I acknowledged that surfing was different and am trying to learn how surfing occurs. It appears that there is a forward movement of the water on the front surface of the wave. The links that Rod gave show that movement as do other sources. A couple of other reasons why I believe there may be a forward movement of the water on the face of the wave. Someone mentioned loss of rudder control. Generally loss of rudder control is due to less water flowing around the rudder, which could be because they are in a following current. The other reason is that water flows downhill. I find it improbable that the water would not obey the laws of gravity in a wave. As for gulls and your own body at Atlantic City, there is no net movement towards or away from the beach except due to the tide. I have been out in the water in proximity to someone and there was relative motion between us, a gentle moving towards and away from each other. I DON’T THINK SURFING AND PLANNING ARE THE SAME. Now I would like to make sure this is perfectly clear. I use inexpensive line from Home Depot, etc. If you are not comfortable using the less expensive line, don’t use it. Now I would like to make sure this is perfectly clear. I use red oak for trim. Red oak is not used by ship builders. If you are not comfortable using red oak, don’t use it. Now I would like to make sure this perfectly clear. I use a trolling motor on my smaller boat. A lot of people recommend you not use a trolling motor. If you are not comfortable using a trolling motor on your sailboat, don’t use it. Now I would like to make sure this is perfectly clear. I sometimes use other non-marine products on my sailboat such as angle aluminum for spreaders and other paints and varnishes. If you are not comfortable using non-marine products on your sailboat, don’t use them. As a further disclaimer. I sail my MAC 23 on Bull Shoals. I am apt to sail my AF D-18 anywhere within a thousand mile radius. If you feel endangered being on the same lake, let me know whenever you are sailing and I provide you my sailing plan. The last five paragraphs are a feeble attempt to inject a little humor into this thread.
 
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John S

Planing Surfing whatever

Thanks Gregg' I am a little amazed at where this thread has gone. Here is my plan, as soon as I have liquid water in my local reservoir. I am going to put a larger outboard on the transom, leave the ballast tanks empty, and see what happens. I really like technical explanations about the reasons the hull wont exceed 8 knots. If one would only squat down and look at the hull of a 26, one might say "Hey, it looks like you could plane or surf that sucker (the hull)". As to recording it, oh yeah we always have a camera. As far as posting an mpg file on this list, I can't even get a picture to fit. I think it is important to always have fun when boating. I like to try new and even outrageous sports, within the constraints of safety and liability. Some of the sailboat competitors I know, have the means to empty the ballast tanks on a D or S while afloat. I cannot answer the question of how different the X and M hulls are from the rather flat bottomed hull on my D. And what if the hull could get going pretty good with just the kicker on the back? Oh yeah, it would be tippy, so put a little water in her. This last summer, I am a little ashamed to admit (OK so I'm new), I tried sailing for about ten minutes without any water ballast. On my ballast valve, one must loosen the fitting AND push it down before the tanks will fill. The boat did not turn turtle, although it did roll a bit, with the sails up. I imagine it is the same for an X or M without the ballast tanks full. I was hoping someone on this list had already tried it, pushing the hull enough to get her going faster.
 
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Stephen Paul

Dear John

Dear John, (always wanted to write that phrase) Sounds like you are having a good time. I'd be very careful about trying to go too fast without ballast in your 26 Mac. Being knocked down while sailing is one thing but I'm concerned for your safety if you go too fast with too much power. Going over could snap a stay and having that mast or stays coming down can get someone hurt. Not to mention your pocketbook. Good luck Steve
 
Jun 5, 2004
997
Macgregor 26D Boise
Prep the boat

Good idea, maybe I'll leave the mast down whilst I do this. John S
 
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Ramblin' Rod - Mac 26D - SeaQuell

Dan, apparently you have a vision probelm to...

...to go along with that learning disability. RE: I have to admit that my comment to Rod about hull speed was a cheap shot. He failed to mention that he was talking about a displacement hull or even sailboats except where he calculated the hull speed for a MAC 26. Response: Dec. 3 - (Post title) "<b>Displacement</b> Boats Don't Plane" Dec. 4 - (Body) "If it was the same thing, a <b>displacement hull</b> boat that can surf (all can) would also be able to plane (none can)." Dec. 5 - (Body) "When a <b>displacement<b> hulled boat is in motion, it creates a bow and stern wave." ....... "If more power is applied, the <b>displacement</b> hull simply pushes more water, the bow wave and stern wave become higher, and hence the valley becomes deeper." ..... "No amount of additional power will enable the <b>displacement hull</b> to climb up over the bow wave." ....... "This is the prime difference between a <b>displacement</b> and planing hull." ...... "The Macgregor 26 classics have <b>displacement</b>, NOT planing, hulls. They CANNOT plane." ..... Dec. 12 - (Summary) "In closing, a Mac26 classic has a <b>displacement hull<b/>, and can surf very easily. However, no matter how much power is applied under sail or motor, it cannot plane." >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Furthermore, my posts related to THS calculations are related to a displacement hull, as only displacmenet hulls have a THS. Furthermore yet, my posts related to MacGregor 26 classics or Mac26Ds, are related to a displacement hull. <b>The only post from Dan McGuire I will respond to from this point forward is one that sincerely expresses an apology with no strings, conditions, or convoluted messages attached.</b>
 
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