Catalina 25 in heavier winds pointing upwind constantly

Mark Hartong15325 · Feb 8, 2009

Catalina 250 Roundup

Paul

Rudder control has been an issue with the C250, an varies upon which generation rudder (1, 2, or 3), and if you have a Water Ballast or Wing Keel.

I suggest that you take your question over to the Catalina 25/250/Capri 25 web site.

http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/

This has been a topic of much discussion over the years. Generally people with the first generation rudder had issues with control. Catalina developed a second generation rudder that solved many of the problems, and later a third generation rudder. I think you will find that the third generation rudder on the wing keel works fairly well, but not as well with water ballast. Some people have also added ballast in the bow under the V-berth, and have found that helps performance.

I haven't had any issues (I have a Wing Keel with third generation rudder), but I encourage you to visit the association website, where you can find more information that might be better suited to your vessel, its configuration, and your sailing style.

Mark
S/V Persephone
250 WK 932
Deltaville, VA

jimg · Feb 8, 2009

Weather Helm

It's got nothing to do with the rudder. What you experienced was a classic case of weather helm. This is evident when the boat wants to point up, to weather, when pressure is lessened on the tiller. As the wind increases the pressure on the tiller may become extreme. The reason for this really quite simple, and to oversimplify: There is more force on the aft end of the boat than the front, (the "center of effort" is aft) and the keel (the "center of lateral resistance") is forward, and the boat is pivoting around the keel to windward. This is a problem common to many boats, but you exaggerated it when you sailed with only an unreefed main and no jib. Your boat has a relatively small fractional jib. Next time you go out be sure to use it, and if the wind begins to increase, reef the main first. The boat should be much more balanced that way.

Skipper · Feb 9, 2009

Had one

Had an '02 250 WK for 3 years.
The jib is not fractional, it's a full rig with a 110 from the factory.
You can tame the rounding by letting mainsheet out and to a lessor extend the jib sheet.
The roundup is caused by the heal more than fore\aft sail imbalance. Sail depowering or reefing works wonders.
And BTW, a bigger rudder would help, but depowering is a huge amount easier than an upgrade, and free.

PCP777 · Jun 15, 2009

h2oslider said:
Hello everyone!

I'm glad I found this forum (I hope I'm posting in the right place) and hope you guys can help me out. My family has a 2000 Catalina 250 that we recently put new sails on and re-rigged with new lines since she's approaching almost 10 years old by now and made it through Hurricane Ike back in September. She is kept on Lake Conroe, TX and gets sailed a couple times a month. I did a search before posting this to see if I could find an answer, but came up with nothing. It is possible I just didn't know what to search for so I apologize if this is a repeat post.

The other day we took her out, it was blowing about 15mph with gusts a little higher in the 20 to 25 mph range. One thing I noticed is that every time a gust hit, the boat would automatically start pointing up in to the wind, no matter how hard I counter steered. It's like I wasn't even counter steering sometimes! It was really hard to keep an line, especially when we got the boat keeled over at a good angle. All of the sailing this day was done with just the main sail up, not reefed in.

Is there something I can do to help the boat steer better and keep a better line in these types of winds? My brother and I felt like the rudder just wasn't cutting it. Are there upgraded rudders for this boat?

Thanks for any pointers you guys can give me,

Paul

It does sound like weather helm and that your boat is getting over powered. Do you have a traveler for your main sheet? If so, loosen it to the leeward side when your boat starts doing this. 20 to 25 MPH is pretty sporty for a boat of this class, the same thing happens to my Catalina 25. Try loosening the traveler, maybe reef your main and use your smaller jib.

philwsailz · Jun 15, 2009

I have found on various boats that I can tame some of the weather helm by re-tuning the rig. loosen the back-stay and loosen the rear lowers. Then tighten the forestay to bring the top of the stick forward. Then tighten the rear lowers. Doing this moves the center of effort forward some. The very slight movement can really help with weather helm.

My recommendation is not to try to remove all weather helm. Something I have always had comfort in knowing is that my boat will round up and falter if I ever by chance fall off the boat single-handing. My worst fear with one of my older boats, was that prior to retuning the top of the stick aft that it had NO weather helm. Had I ever left the boat on accident while under sail, it would have maintained course and sailed on to its eventual meeting with the ground.

As Skipper also points out, rounding up can be as a result of heeling. One of the newest tools in my arsenal is the Cunningham/downhaul. In heavy air, you want the luff of the main as tight as possible. This will pull the "pocket" of the main forward and help flatten the main. Pull down on the bottom of the sail, and feel the boat start to sit more upright. I am amazed and surprised every time I do this how much a difference it makes.

Lastly, a good outhaul and a vang will further asssist with flattening the main. A flatter main will behave more like a blade than a wing, and contributes less to the boat's heeling. Pull the outhaul quite tight. then adjust the vang depending on the conditions. a flat main with some twist at the top to spill air can make heavy air sailing much more pleasant and less tiring on the tiller arm...

Reef early if you think you will need to . Reefing after the wind has already gotten stupid is one of the more nerve-wracking things I have done. It happens, but it is better if you are prepared.

KJH · Jun 18, 2009

From my experience, I believe PCP777 has offered an excellent summary of what to do when overpowered. I would only emphasize the use of your jib to balance the force on the rudder. Good luck and don't forget the old axiom-When in doubt, let it out!

foolproof · Sep 9, 2009

I find that on my '79 C25 with 150 jib fully out and no reef in the main, I have great success taming weather helm by tightening the back stay, and taking the fore/aft play out of the stick. It seems backwards, but I swear it works. Went from almost uncontrollable weather helm to a delightful ride. No more cussing and hauling in on the tiller every time the wind blows!

Stu Jackson · Sep 9, 2009

I would also suggest starting to read How To Sail books which would provide you with many enjoyable hours of instruction on this very topic so you get more out of your boat with less fear and trepidation. BTW, rounding up is good! It's safe and gets you in a position that the boat is no longer on its ear. Learn to reef.