Yanmar vs Universal

druid

.
Apr 22, 2009
837
Ontario 32 Pender Harbour
I'm looking at repowering my Ontario 32. The Universal M-25XPB I put in my Catalina 36 (years ago) was VERY nice: easy starting, very smooth and quiet. The Yanmar 2GM20 I put in my Crown 28 was not. It was (relatively) hard to start and quite rough and had a lot of vibration. However the 40-yr-old 2QM20 in the boat now is very smooth and quiet.

So - I'm looking at (probably) either the M25XPB or the Yanmar 3YM20. Ignoring the power difference, are the new Yanmar engines smooth and easy-starting? I notice they still do not have glow-plugs.

Comments?
Lloyd
 
Mar 2, 2008
406
Cal 25 mk II T-Bird Marina, West Vancouver
Hi Lloyd,
Long-time no see (BC Boatnet).
Why are you unhappy with your Yanmar? Does it have problems with compression or ?
A rebuild or a rebuilt motor will always be cheaper than a new motor. Remember the installation and modifications costs (accommodations, motor mounts, shaft, propeller, exhaust, fuel, wiring, etc. will be considerable.
My 1979 vintage single cylinder YSM12 just keeps on going and going and going..... Just like the Eveready rabbit. No glow plugs and except when I had bad contacts inside the starter motor, it starts on the second (or third) compression cycle every time even in our cold winter (Zero deg C air and +4 deg C water).
Have a look at http://www.gartsidemarine.com/
I would also look at the Beta. They have nice packages.
 
Dec 19, 2006
5,812
Hunter 36 Punta Gorda
I have 3YM30 in my 2007 H36 and everyone tells me
how smooth it runs and I love how great it easy to start
I thought I saw glow plug switch next to the key start but never used glow plugs in Florida and it is self priming and the sea water pump faces forward to change the impeller
so easy.
Nick
 
Jul 4, 2015
436
Hunter 34 Menominee, MI; Sturgeon Bay WI
Have a 30 year old Yanmar 3GM30. Reliable 1st-turn starts, quiet, smooth.
 
Nov 6, 2006
9,898
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
The new Yanmars do have glow plugs. The book says that you may need them if starting below 0 C. I have had really good service from the old 3GMF in my boat.. I have done a lot of maintenance on a friend's 2QM20.. both are very reliable engines.. If I were looking to go with a new re-power, I'd consider the YM Yanmar and the Beta 20 HP. The Beta uses a Kubota engine (as does Universal/Westerbeke) so parts are a bit easier to come by than the tightly controlled local parts network of Yanmar. Both are fine engines and likely to last many years.. I have had trouble working with Westerbeke but that may be a local problem? All mentioned are 3 cylinder engines so they are going to be equally rough or very closely so. Yanmar comes with a 125 ampere alternator and the Beta is standard at 40 amperes but has an option to go to 75 amperes.
 
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Feb 6, 1998
11,674
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
I'm looking at repowering my Ontario 32. The Universal M-25XPB I put in my Catalina 36 (years ago) was VERY nice: easy starting, very smooth and quiet. The Yanmar 2GM20 I put in my Crown 28 was not. It was (relatively) hard to start and quite rough and had a lot of vibration. However the 40-yr-old 2QM20 in the boat now is very smooth and quiet.

So - I'm looking at (probably) either the M25XPB or the Yanmar 3YM20. Ignoring the power difference, are the new Yanmar engines smooth and easy-starting? I notice they still do not have glow-plugs.

Comments?
Lloyd

I have owned engines from almost all of them and currently have a Westerbeke/Mitsubishi. I would not buy another Westerbeke or Universal engine as I find the marinization awkward at best and parts channel & pricing rather insane.. The base Kubota or Mitsubishi blocks that Weterbeke uses are fine but they really lag behind the others in many ways.

Yanmar's are great engines but I really have grown to dislike their extremely closed off & very exclusive dealer network requiring you to buy within your "zone" etc. and the parts prices have become as offensive as Volvo & Westerbeke... How about $679.00 for a Yanmar "Made by VDO" tachometer that is a proprietary fit for the Yanmar engine panel.

Also the newer engines are starting to come through "electronic" which you really do not want. Get an old-school engine as soon as you can because they will be gone pretty soon, even on smaller blocks....

If I were re-powering my own vessel today, hands down, it would be Beta. Their marinizing is excellent, base block is Kubota and they spend a good deal of money carefully balancing each flywheel to make the engines smooth enough for use on boats (as opposed to tractors or industrial equipment), something Universal/Westerbeke ignore and makes a differnce especially on three cylinder engines..

Beta also does not have contracts with the base engine suppliers that specifically prohibit them from selling parts for a Westerbeke or Universal "marine engine". I was able to get a Mitsubishi parts manual but it entailed some serious sleuthing as Westerbeke removes the original engine serial number which one would need to get a parts manual from a Mitsubishi distributor. The minute you even mention Westerbeke they will end the conversation. Some parts through Westerbeke have been a 20X markup over direct from an industrial supplier! In order to buy the manual I had to tell the guy "Well its a red colored engine but it came in a home built wood chipper I bought. All I know is that it is a Mitsubishi SL42 engine block.".... That is really pretty offensive...

On the flip side of that Stanley at Beta will tell you the exact Kubota part number you need and you can then source it at any tractor re-seller for the most reasonable price you can find. Over the life of an engine this could really add up to a huge savings. Only the marinized parts need to come from Beta and even some of those are "sourced" parts.

Beta also serves up serpentine belts as standard equipment on most engines making a performance alternator upgrade possible while Universal/Westerbeke & Yanmar are still in the dark ages & still using v-belts.

Heck right on the Beta site they will say Beta 20 (D722) the "D722" is the Kubota block.. Beta does not hide this from you. Go ahead ask Yanmar which block it is that is shared with a John Deer or other tractor? They WILL NOT TELL YOU. Yes Yanmar marinizes their own engines, but this does NOT make them a specifically built "marine engine". They are still the same as the industrial or tractor engines & identical to the blocks they sell to John Deer etc.. BTW I buy many Yanmar parts from John Deer & other dealers for a LOT LESS than Mack Boring.

Do not get hung up on the alternators as NONE of them are do much on deeply cycled banks. If you desire any level of charging performance take the smallest alt they provide and then convert it to a high performance alt with external regulation.
 
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May 10, 2008
392
Catalina 355 Boston
I have owned engines from almost all of them and currently have a Westerbeke/Mitsubishi. I would not buy another Westerbeke or Universal engine as I find the marinization awkward at best and parts channel & pricing rather insane.. The base Kubota or Mitsubishi blocks that Weterbeke uses are fine but they really lag behind the others in many ways.

Yanmar's are great engines but I really have grown to dislike their extremely closed off & very exclusive dealer network requiring you to buy within your "zone" etc. and the parts prices have become as offensive as Volvo & Westerbeke... How about $679.00 for a Yanmar "Made by VDO" tachometer that is a proprietary fit for the Yanmar engine panel.

Also the newer engines are starting to come through "electronic" which you really do not want. Get an old-school engine as soon as you can because they will be gone pretty soon, even on smaller blocks....

If I were re-powering my own vessel today, hands down, it would be Beta. Their marinizing is excellent, base block is Kubota and they spend a good deal of money carefully balancing each flywheel to make the engines smooth enough for use on boats (as opposed to tractors or industrial equipment), something Universal/Westerbeke ignore and makes a differnce especially on three cylinder engines..

Beta also does not have contracts with the base engine suppliers that specifically prohibit them from selling parts for a Westerbeke or Universal "marine engine". I was able to get a Mitsubishi parts manual but it entailed some serious sleuthing as Westerbeke removes the original engine serial number which one would need to get a parts manual from a Mitsubishi distributor. The minute you even mention Westerbeke they will end the conversation. Some parts through Westerbeke have been a 20X markup over direct from an industrial supplier! In order to buy the manual I had to tell the guy "Well its a red colored engine but it came in a home built wood chipper I bought. All I know is that it is a Mitsubishi SL42 engine block.".... That is really pretty offensive...

On the flip side of that Stanley at Beta will tell you the exact Kubota part number you need and you can then source it at any tractor re-seller for the most reasonable price you can find. Over the life of an engine this could really add up to a huge savings. Only the marinized parts need to come from Beta and even some of those are "sourced" parts.

Beta also serves up serpentine belts as standard equipment on most engines making a performance alternator upgrade possible while Universal/Westerbeke & Yanmar are still in the dark ages & still using v-belts.

Heck right on the Beta site they will say Beta 20 (D722) the "D722" is the Kubota block.. Beta does not hide this from you. Go ahead ask Yanmar which block it is that is shared with a John Deer or other tractor? They WILL NOT TELL YOU. Yes Yanmar marinizes their own engines, but this does NOT make them a specifically built "marine engine". They are still the same as the industrial or tractor engines & identical to the blocks they sell to John Deer etc.. BTW I buy many Yanmar parts from John Deer & other dealers for a LOT LESS than Mack Boring.

Do not get hung up on the alternators as NONE of them are do much on deeply cycled banks. If you desire any level of charging performance take the smallest alt they provide and then convert it to a high performance alt with external regulation.
Maine,
It is my understanding that starting in 2013 all Yanmars were coming standard with Serpentine belts and 120 Alts (still crappy internally regulated/temp compensated Hitachi)? The reason I know is because my boat came equipped with the old belt setup and I missed out on the new by 3 months Tried to get MB give me a deal on the refit, but no luck...
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,674
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Maine,
It is my understanding that starting in 2013 all Yanmars were coming standard with Serpentine belts and 120 Alts (still crappy internally regulated/temp compensated Hitachi)? The reason I know is because my boat came equipped with the old belt setup and I missed out on the new by 3 months Tried to get MB give me a deal on the refit, but no luck...

Good catch. I knew they had done this on 30HP and up but the last 20HP I saw still had a single v-belt. Yes the 125A alt is still internally temp compensated and really is not a performance alternator but certainly better than the older 80A max units. It is about time Yanmar made this move. Of course Electromaax that engineered those kits and then Yanmar stuck it to them and built it themselves.....
 

Tricia

.
Jun 4, 2004
86
Freedom 30 Victoria, BC
Maine, what alternator/regulator would you use for an old Yanmar 2gm20f?
 

weinie

.
Sep 6, 2010
1,297
Jeanneau 349 port washington, ny
Maine,
what do you mean when you say the new Yanmars are "starting to come through "electronic""?
 

druid

.
Apr 22, 2009
837
Ontario 32 Pender Harbour
I'm leaning towards the Universal M25XPB because I really liked the one I put in my Catalina 36. I'm not getting a Beta until they explain to me why their torque curves look like a gas racing engine (ie VERY peaky!). And although they used to be noticable cheaper than the Universal, they're now more expensive. And I also find the Yanmar "closed" system very frustrating!
I'm not too concerned about the alternator now that I have an 80W solar panel - it keeps up with the fridge nicely on even partly-cloudy days so I don't need to use the engine to charge the batteries.
Jalapeno, good to hear from you again! Sorry about BC Boatnet - I'm trying to find a way to at least get Old Salt's excellent posts available.... As for your questions:
1. I went the rebuilt route with the 2GM20F I put in Green Lady and it was almost as expensive as a new engine and lots of stuff (like the starter, alternator, HP pump...) were NOT new.
2. I killed the transmission (long story...) and, well... I'm just not confident with the old 2QM20 there now. It does start easily, run very smoothly, and only smoke a little unless I'm really pushing it. But it is 40 years old, raw-water-cooled... and since I have to pull the engine to replace the transmission and stuffing box (another Long Story...) I might as well drop a new one in so I'll be confident in it out on the WCVI.

Oh, one more thing: I've found Yanmars (both 2QM20 and 2GM20) to be VERY hard to bleed - are they better now?

druid
 
May 12, 2004
1,505
Hunter Cherubini 30 New Port Richey
Replaced the YSB12 in my '77 h30 7 years ago with a brand new Yanmar 3YM20 3 cylinder. Now has just over 500 hours on it and runs like a champ. Only drawback is the Type B panel with the digital hour meter. Display comes and goes. Mostly goes but still records the hours. Discussions in former posts. Yanmar did come out with a push button panel a while back. No key. Friend has one on his new Yanmar. Works great. But I digress. The 3YM20 seems to be a great little engine. Quiet, smooth, reliable. But then, it has only been 7 years.
 

druid

.
Apr 22, 2009
837
Ontario 32 Pender Harbour
How much speed are you getting with the 3YM30, Roland? Cruise/WOT? My existing engine is 20 hp (although it smokes quite a bit above about 15hp), but the propcalc says I need at least 22hp to get to 7 knots. IIRC (have it written down on the boat...) I get about 6.5 knots with a clean bottom at about as fast as I dare run then engine.

druid
 
May 12, 2004
1,505
Hunter Cherubini 30 New Port Richey
The 3YM20 I have will push my h30 along at 6.0 to 6.5 knots in flat water at 3200 rpm. Push to WOT, 3600 rpm, it will approach 6.5 to 7.0 knots. I also have a three bladed prop. At 3600rpm it will produce 21 hp. The 3YM30 at WOT, 3600rpm, will produce 27-28 hp. I did motor an '09 h36, disp. almost 14000 lbs., with the 3YM30 and it moved along nicely at 6 -7 knots at 3200rpm. A much different hull design and more displacement. But, we're really comparing apples to oranges here. Both engines are almost identical with the exception of hp and a little difference in weight. Try this site for more info. http://us.yanmar.com/products/marine-engines/sailboats/ym/
 

druid

.
Apr 22, 2009
837
Ontario 32 Pender Harbour
Hmmm... well my Ontario 32 is kinda between the h30 and h36: built quite a bit heavier (read SLOWER ;) ) than a hunter but more waterline than yours. I'd like to see 7 at the top to get through tidal passages where I've read the tables wrong, but I'm not sure I'd see much difference with an extra 5 hp. Also, the 3YM30 differs from the 3YM20 in one other critical aspect: COST ;). Strangely enough, the Yanmars would actually be quite a bit more of a pain to install than the Kubutas: the 2QM20 mounts are 16.4 inches apart, the Kubutas 16.0 inches, and the 3YM's 14.6 (which means I'd have to rebuilt the stringers).

BTW: can anybody here explain the wierd torque curves of the Betas? http://www.betamarinecanada.com/pdf/beta20/B20_SDS.pdf

druid
 
May 12, 2004
1,505
Hunter Cherubini 30 New Port Richey
I did have to rebuild my stringers but the minimal cost was worth it to me in my situation. Costs of the engines vs. the few added horses?... yes, that could be a factor. It was for me. Take in all the info you can get and do what serves your needs. Good luck. Keep us posted.
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,085
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
I installed Yanmar 2YM15 as it closely matched the footprint of my 1GM and have now had it since 2013. It has the V-belt & 80 amp alternator. I wasn't aware of the change or the charging issues. Cost comparison between this and a similar Beta was in favor of Yanmar, just based on the engine and transmission. I'd say I probably had fewer install complications based on the similar footprint. Beta would have made a stringer adjustment necessary, I think.
The control panel is all push-button & there is a glow plug. Routine maintenance is accessible but it is a tighter fit in my compartment now. I have an odd little vibration at 1600 rpm that occurs in neutral and under load. It's not a shaft alignment issue. I've read that it is best to simply avoid that rpm, which I easily have been able to do. It idles nicely and other than idle, I will typically run no lower than about 2000 rpm. Still, if I throttle up slowly from idle to above, I get a momentary shudder at 1600. If I stick it at 1600, the vibration doesn't disappear. Don't know if that is common or not. I love the additional performance and happy to have made the upgrade.
 
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druid

.
Apr 22, 2009
837
Ontario 32 Pender Harbour
I just got some estimates. Unfortunately Universal hasn't got back to me yet so they kinda failed the first test. Between Beta and Yanmar, it's kind of what I expected. Like Apple, Yanmar thinks it's King of the Hill and you pay for it. I don't have the numbers handy, but even with "boat show prices" the 3YM20 was $1000 more than the Beta 25 (and iirc the 3YM30 was about $2500 more). But the real difference was the "extras": a high-rise exhaust elbow for Yanmar was over $800, the Beta was about $300. And so on, so when the dust cleared and taxes were factored in, the Beta 25 was about $11,500 while the 3YM30 was almost $15000. It might be a better engine, but it's not THAT much better! (oh, and there's about another $5000 of "other costs" to add to either option)

I'm going to visit both booths at the boat show, but it looks like I'm going with the Beta 25.

druid
 
Jan 22, 2008
8,050
Beneteau 323 Annapolis MD
I have the 3YM20 in my 32' 10" Benny, and it is plenty of power.