Tartan Strong Arms Sailnet & Threatens Law Suit

[Concerned By Stander]

There's an interesting thread going on over at Sailnet right now about Tartan Yachts and a moderator who wound up quitting over the debacle and a difference in ethical thinking between he and Sailnet.

A couple of days ago Tartan threatened Sailnet with legal action if they did not remove a thread that had discussions about Tartans abuse of customers, cracked hulls, lack of satisfactory warranty support, sail drive failures and discussions of the numerous legal actions currently in place against Tartan & C&C Yachts, which are all public knowledge. Over the last 18 months or so there were over 450 responses in this thread and Tartan and the management team forced their heavy hand to quench the voice of the online sailing community.

Sailnet is not legally responsible for the postings of it's members and this is backed up by numerous court cases however they chose not to spend the capital to even defend such a frivolous case.

According to court documents and owners who have also had their blogs shut down, the current management team at Tartan wants to skirt warranties, not pay vendors blame vendors and in general collect your hard earned money then stick you with a fat bill for issues that should have been covered by the warranty.

This is exactly the type of vendor we as sailors need to be cautious of. It's one thing to abuse your own customers but when you begin abusing the entire sailing community that is where it becomes overly offensive.

For those interested in reading the current topic here it is

I have resigned as moderator.
First let me say that this is no joke and allow me to thank the many good friends and members who have made my job as moderator worthwhile and lent their support in tough times. I am NOT leaving sailnet; just ending my tenure as a moderator. Now let me get into why.

As many are aware, I started a "Prospective Tartan Buyers" thread here in summer of 2007. My initial purpose was to make members aware that there were reports of Tartan/C&C hull and outdrive problems and that a couple of owners had filed suit. I took no side then on that issue but merely alerted potential customers to a possible issue and suggested that buyers get a survey done and/or investigate the reports on their own. A year and a half and 464 posts later, the thread had taken on a life of its own and many unflattering facts had come to light about the management and legal and financial position of the company while the original issue I raised has still not been settled by the courts. It is not my intention to re-hash that thread here. The important thing to me is that the thread alerted fellow sailors to the possibility of some product problems that could possibly be a major issue at sea AND that Tartan/Novis has well over $1million dollars in judgment liens OPEN against them and several more suits pending. Prospective buyers should be aware of this so that they can take steps to protect themselves before taking possession of a boat or making deposits.

Imagine my surprise when Sailnet took this thread off line in late October.
To make a long story short... William Ross, President of Novis/Tartan called Sailnet management to complain about the "biased" nature of the thread and asked them to take it down. He made it clear that there was a possibility of legal action if they did not.

Sailnet management removed the thread without understanding the content or context since they do NOT follow this board closely. They did understand the math...remove the thread at no cost...or face a possible lawsuit costing 10's of thousands of dollars.

Over the last few weeks, CruisingDad and I have been trying to help Sailnet management understand the thread and they have come to realize, I believe, that there is a moral issue here and a free speech issue as well as a business issue. The bottom line is that despite what they might like or choose to do in normal times... they simply cannot afford to get involved in a lawsuit even if there is an overwhelming likelihood that they would eventually win. I was told that they would have to lay someone off to be able to fight a suit. Given that stark choice, I told Sailnet that I would probably make the same decision to delete the thread... but could no longer remain a moderator for a site that deletes a thread so important to sailors.

So folks...that is the unvarnished truth. I am not sure if this post will be allowed to stand or be deleted too and would ask my friends to make copies of it so that if it is deleted, it may go viral!

I want to once again state that I bear NO ill will to anyone at sailnet as they are not the CAUSE of the thread being deleted...only the implementers and VERY reluctant ones at that. For those still interested in reading the content of the thread you can get it all but in bits and pieces at Google using their "cache" function and entering prospective tartan site:www.sailnet.com/forums in the google search box.

I intend to remain a contributing member here with my friends unless my posts start getting deleted in which case you can find me over at cruisersforum under the same screen name.

Again... thank you all for your support and understanding.

Cam

 

[Tim R.]

That is unfortunate. The good news here is that a company as large as Tartan took notice of a group of online sailors. Although the outcome is negative, it does show we have a voice and it is being heard. Tartan took the low road which will likely be more damaging. The original thread will survive on other forums and blogs. The threat of the lawsuit only slowed it down a little.

A message to other questionable marine companies, time to step up the customer service. For all the great companies out there, we will continue to spread the word of your excellent service.

 

[sailingdog]

Be aware that the thread in question was also discussing the various lawsuits against Tartan/C&C/Novis/Jackett... etc. Most of the information in that thread was of public record. Tartan was asked to reply to the thread, and chose not to IIRC.

Also, many one-post trolls posted in that thread and were traced back, via IP address to the area of Ohio where Tartan/C&C is headquartered. This isn't to say that those one-shot wonders advocating Tartan/C&C/Jackett/Novis were Tartan/C&C/Novis employees, but it does make you wonder.

BTW, the ethical standards of a company that would squash an open and public discussion of valid problems and publicly documented court cases, most of which they've lost I might add, must be pretty low and says much about the mind-set of the management of such a company.

The fact that Jackett has tried to sell the assets of the company only, without any further liability for the warranties of the boats that have been sold in the past ten years, also speaks volumes about Jackett and company, and the quality of their recent products. Jackett has used the assets only approach to ditch warranty liability previously IIRC.

 

[higgs]

Wow _ I used to spend a lot of time over at Sailnet. Interesting stuff on Tartan. I hope we do not put Phil in a bad spot over this issue as well.

 

[sailingdog]

Higgs-

Reporting that Tartan strong-armed another sailing forum into removing a thread is a fact. It can not be libel as it is truth. Truth is an absolute defense from libel in the USA, where both SBO and Tartan are located.

 

[Concerned By Stander]

Below is just a brief quote/post and is representative of the information that was contained in some of those 450+ posts on Sailnet. The post was thoroughly researched so much so that it even lists court case numbers.

This stuff was posted as fair warning to other sailors and Tartan does not want anyone to see it! There is NO bashing just factual public information and genuine concern for other boaters who could potentially invest 200k+ in a new Tartan or C&C.

This info, like what I've quoted below, is still scattered around the net in cache files and hopefully others will share more of it when they find it. I think it is good to see the kind of info Tartan wants to see stopped & shut down so that potential buyers don't have an even hand or even a clue about the current company when looking to buy a new boat.

"WARNING: TO PROSPECTIVE New TARTAN/C&C BUYERS"

"Tartan/Novis Marine's former lawyers have filed for non-payment of invoices in the amount of around $200k AND asked the judge to step in pre-emptively and attach the assets of Novis and the new company Grand River."
These documents are filed in Cayahuga County Ohio by the law firm Porter, Wright, Morris and Arthur LLP as case Number 08CV 647213...Judge John D. Sutula presiding on 3/18/2008."

"In the public court document the lawyers state that Novis' liabilities appear to exceed their assets and further state that the asset transfer is either deliberate fraud or an effort to avoid paying legitimate creditors.
******
"Novis/Grand River has posted NOTHING on their site in 90 days regarding the sale or how existing owners claims and future warranty issues will be handled."

"I have tried to remain neutral on these issues and continue to invite a response from the company...but this latest development is most concerning and should be a HUGE warning flag to any prospective buyer or anyone with a boat currently under construction there.
I have pdf copies of the court documents available for anyone who wishes to reviews them but have no way of hosting them on line. Just PM me with your e-mail and I will forward them if you need to see them."

 

[Tim R.]

Higgs-

Reporting that Tartan strong-armed another sailing forum into removing a thread is a fact. It can not be libel as it is truth. Truth is an absolute defense from libel in the USA, where both SBO and Tartan are located.

That is true dog but it still does not stop a large company with lawyers on retainer to threaten a suit. I think Sailnet recognized this and opted to avoid the costs to defend the "truth".

 

[Phil Herring]

"Right" and logic are irrelevant

Here's the sad truth about civil suits: Even if the claim is completely frivolous you still have to defend yourself against it. That's very expensive. The legitimacy of the claim doesn't really become part of the equation until trial, and nobody goes to trial because that's going to cost at least $100,000, probably much more. (That's oversimplified a bit but basically true.)

If the plaintiff has protected assets, or has none, there's virtually no down side. I'm not saying that's what Tartan is doing, but I am saying that people with lawyers who want to make trouble usually can. Whether your defense is weak or strong, you're still going to pay a hefty financial penalty.

So please keep that in mind when bringing the topic to this forum.

 

[sailingdog]

Very true... wish the court system in the USA required the loser of a suit to pay for the winner's court costs, and disbarred attorneys for filing too many frivolous lawsuits, say for one year... That would clear up a whole lot of court cases...

That is true dog but it still does not stop a large company with lawyers on retainer to threaten a suit. I think Sailnet recognized this and opted to avoid the costs to defend the "truth".

 

[Tim R.]

Don't get me started dog! There are some great lawyers out there doing great work but I have had the opportunity to work with more than a handfull of rotten ones.

 

[Brian D]

Before we get all worked up over this, remember that this is between Sailnet and Tartan. Granted, we as sailors may lean towards Sailnet as a brotherhood of sailors but we here at SBO do not want to get caught up in this "battle".

Please exercise caution in what you say and/or how you say it. If you have a complaint about any manufacture, this is not the forum for that complaint. We have a good judicial system just for that. So please do not take sides on this matter within the forums of SBO.

This is just my opinion.

 

[gettinthere]

wonder how long it will take for tartan to threaten this website with legal action.

Gives you a real warm and fuzzy about the company eh?

 

[firehoser75]

I would avoid doing business with this manufacturer

This is exactly the type of business practice that would cause me to avoid doing ANY business with that company. This situation is fairly easily researched as existing or pending court cases are public record. The situation at Sailnet is also now "on the record".
I used to think that this company had a pretty good product, and if (when) I was in the market for a different boat, I would have considered their product. NOT NOW!:naughty:

 

[Brian D]

I will let Phil unlock this thread if he feels compelled to do so. There are some users here who feel compelled to voice their based on hearsay. I will lock this thread because I believe we are stepping over a very fine line.