Shroud connection question

Fred

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Sep 27, 2008
501
Catalina 28 mkii 745 Ottawa, Ontario, CA
Some of my considerations/questions.... I would prefer not to add external halyards. If I move the (internal) turning block for the jib halyard to a position just above the hounds, will I still be able to use the halyard for mast raising? Will adding another cutout for the new turning block weaken the mast? Should I remove the old turning block and would I have to install a strengthening plate in its stead?
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Fred, two things:

1: The easiest/best/only solution to that is it RUN A SPIN HALYARD. Its much safer and easy to do. You need to add a sheave above the forestay, and a halyard exit at eye level near the deck. It needs to be above the forestay!

2: If you are not getting much better speeds from the asym, your probably doing it wrong.

I can see a potential problem in your picture, as you have the clew poked out, like you are going DDW with a genoa. Thats going to very slow. The asym should fly like a pure foil, meaning you should sail at an angle no deeper that say 150 true. This way the breese hits the sail at the luff, and stays attached all the way back to the leach. No pole will be needed (or possible!) and the pressure will fully support the sail.

The speed difference vs the jib will be huge.
 

Joe

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Jun 1, 2004
8,002
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
You need a proper "chain plate" rather than relying on those under sized backing plates. Chainplates anchor the rigging to a vertical surface, such as the hull or a bulkhead, that spreads the load to a wide area. I suggest you be a little creative and give some additional vertical support to your cap shrouds. Here are a couple of solutions... try googling "sailboat chainplates" for inspiration.

 
Jun 2, 2004
649
Hunter 23.5 Calgary, Canada
Going from memory, I'm quite sure there is a bit of material removed for my shroud backing plates as well. I think to allow them to fit flat and/or make room for a tool to fit the nut for tightening. I can't imagine that's unusual at all.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
You need a proper "chain plate" rather than relying on those under sized backing plates. Chainplates anchor the rigging to a vertical surface, such as the hull or a bulkhead, that spreads the load to a wide area. I suggest you be a little creative and give some additional vertical support to your cap shrouds. Here are a couple of solutions... try googling "sailboat chainplates" for inspiration.
Indeed, that construction technique REALLY surprised me. While I haven't heard of a ton of Hunter 2xx rigs falling over, I'm pretty sure I would not want to push one as has as I would like.

As a comparison, here is the outboard shroud setup on my like-sized First 260.
The first picture shows the outside detail, were the SS rigging plate is secured to the hull with 5 bolts.

chain1.jpg


More importantly, on the inside the laminate schedule was built up in this area to help spread the load. Each of the layered areas has been built up to take the rig loading. Pretty sure you could lift the boat with these two points.

chain2.jpg


Plates like these are easy to come by; you could probably make your boat much stronger with a rather straightforward mod. Do it right and you could re-use your shrouds!
 
Last edited:
Jun 8, 2004
10,049
-na -NA Anywhere USA
Jackdaw,
The system for attachment of the shroud chain plates worked quite well on this boat. Never heard of any failures but my original post was based on experience due to overloading by the previous owner with a larger sail and over tensioning the rig. Other than 1 crack in the gel coat I saw things but not to be alarmed. However a resolution as I pointed out needs to be addressed. Anyone who is concerned can take a high grade stainless steel rod of course round cutting it longer and drilling holes thru it to accommodate the chain plate. I would suggest a shop set up to do the drilling though if the owner is not set up to do that. I would use double nylon nuts backed up on one another to insure a safe locking so the first nut would not move securing the chain plate. The tension I also suspect is overloaded as well from what I saw in the photos as well. Even Frank and Annette who own Catalina and Beneteau were impressed with that attachment.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Dave,

For sure, and as i noted, H2xx rigs are not falling dowm, so it seems to being the job intended. But it is no doubt weaker than a hull mount, and i personally would never want a rigging attachment where simple over-tuning can cause local deformation/damage.
 
Jun 8, 2004
10,049
-na -NA Anywhere USA
Jackdaw;
Remember these are not off shore boats but orignailly designed for trailerability with the intent of enjoyable sailing sometimes racing of course but not set up for the real seriousness of what I call sever racing. So, the Hunter 23.5 thru the 270 are different from your boat.
 

Joe

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Jun 1, 2004
8,002
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
I hardly consider adequate chainplates a design feature limited to racing and offshore sailing. Many production boats, mine included, have evolved after design flaws and weaknesses have been exposed. Retro fits and upgrades abound as a boat experiences more age and use over it's lifetime. I think it is obvious that the "chainplate design" in this boat was underwhelming... whether it's a trailer sailor or not.... whether it's raced or not... whether the owner's manual says to stay out of winds over 10kts or never rig a 135%genoa.... it's a simple fix to make the chainplate more robust and remove some of the conditions suggested. We're not talking about rig failure as much as deck distortion and damage to hull deck seam....
In any case, it wouldn't take much to strengthen this area and eliminate further damage.
 
Jan 13, 2017
34
Hunter 23.5 Panama City, Florida
Thanks to Dave, and all the others that posted suggestions and concerns for this issue. Based upon your suggestions, I've come up with a plan of action to strengthen the structure and ease my mind of fear while sailing in strong winds. First, I will purchase some stainless steel stock same dimensions as original except in a 12 inch length. I'll have a machine shop drill the holes to ensure proper alignment and spacing. I'll then put everything back together using double self-locking nuts before seeking the guidance of someone more experienced and knowledgeable than myself for proper rigging/tuning. Lastly, until I can save to purchase/find/trade for a genoa with less power, I'll sail with the genoa only partially unfurled (hoping to retain use but expose less surface area of the headsail?) Of course, for those interested, I'll be sure to post the project and results here. I understand the reasoning behind a redesigned chain plate but am currently lacking in the funds/design and boat manufacturing understanding to take on such a project. I suppose it was my own ignorance of such things that made me so impressed when the previous owner proudly stated that the sails on the boat were just a year old and were good Peak Tri-Radials and *upgraded* 135 genoa with furling system. I can only assume that this new sail installation with the furler is when the rigging was likely overloaded. I've loosed the shroud turnbuckles and re-tightened in accordance with the instructions found here and the owners manual and deformation has now nearly disappeared. Now for the fix.
 
Apr 27, 2010
1,239
Hunter 23 Lake Wallenpaupack
For what it's worth, I tension the shrouds on my 23 the way Dave has recommended - I do it by feel, so that I can pull the shroud sideways (each of lower and upper) about 1/2 inch by hand. That seems to not overload and the lee shrouds don't droop in a stiff wind. I don't have the same deformation issue, as the 23 has chain plates that penetrate the deck (it has a side deck unlike the 23.5 pictured here) and bolt to smallish wood bulkheads tabbed to the hull.
Off topic some but perhaps interesting: I worked in the Seafarer factory one summer in about 1971, the one on Long Island. The boats I worked on, around 30 to 35 ft, had the shrouds (each) connected to a u-bolt that went through the deck, with a backing plate of some sort (or big washers? I can't recall) under the deck's ceiling liner. No attachment to the hull at all. The deck assembly was in essence glued to the hull using epoxy mixed with chopped glass, crammed into a channel between the flared up deck and hull inside edge. Always seemed flaky to me, and I recall they lost a deck (ripped off the hull) in an Atlantic racing model.