Shroud connection question

Jan 13, 2017
34
Hunter 23.5 Panama City, Florida
First off, thanks for having me on this forum. I recently purchased a Hunter 23.5 and have sailed four of five times. This is my first post, although I've been trolling around the forum soaking up info. My question is: Looking at the pictures posted, is this normal? My shroud cables and associated hardware seems to have deformed the structure of my sailboat. If not not normal, can it be repaired?
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Kermit

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Jul 31, 2010
5,657
AquaCat 12.5 17342 Wateree Lake, SC
Welcome to the forum and to sailing. You may have figured out from reading posts that @Crazy Dave Condon is the resident trailerable Hunter sailboat guru. I have my own opinion about what I see in your pictures but I'm not an expert on anything sailboat-related. Except maybe how to make a simple, inexpensive repair complicated and expensive by doing it myself. Again, welcome to the forum.
 
Jun 8, 2004
10,049
-na -NA Anywhere USA
There are two areas causing this. It could be the tune of the rig is so tight which is not needed could be the primary answer. Take a picture with the rig up and let's see as I am curious. The second is the bar under the rub rail may not be as long. Take a picture of that and we can go from there.
 
Jan 13, 2017
34
Hunter 23.5 Panama City, Florida
Thank you for the welcome, Kermit. Thanks Crazy Dave for the reply. Wow, I feel like I've had an encounter with royalty actually getting a response from the one and only Dave Condon. I'll take more pictures at lunch time and get them posted. I'm hoping this is a simple fix as I've already fallen in love with my new (to me) hunter. At the same time, I would not want my rigging to snap off the boat in a hard wind.
 

Fred

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Sep 27, 2008
502
Catalina 28 mkii 745 Ottawa, Ontario, CA
I am very interested in the responses here since my (1996) H26 suffers in the same way, with perhaps even worse distortion. I've had the boat for 3 years and it hasn't changed from the day I bought it. One theory that I have is that the previous owner (PO) upgraded the standard rigging to a larger diameter steel cable. The higher strength cable requires a higher preload to keep the rig tuned. The preload is probably higher than what the boat connection point was (marginally) designed for hence the distortion. On my list of things to do is to lengthen the backing plate so that the load is distributed over a larger surface area. I once saw a modification where an owner fabricated an "L" bracket that served as a backing plate and also bolted through the vertical face of the hull (essentially a chainplate) but I can no longer locate the picture of the mod. This was of paramount concern when I purchased the boat but since it seems to be stable it doesn't bother me as much.
 
Jun 2, 2004
649
Hunter 23.5 Calgary, Canada
JL - not a big deal but just curious about the plastic "boots" on your shrouds. I see in one photo the reflection of a hand holding it up and off the turnbuckles, but another shows the "plug" at the bottom of the boot holding it up. They're intended to slide all the way down and over the turnbuckles like the forward one on the port side. What's your reasoning?
 
Jan 13, 2017
34
Hunter 23.5 Panama City, Florida
Rick, I wondered the same thing about the "boots." This is how they were when I bought the boat. From the reply of Fred, I'm beginning to wonder if the shrouds, distortion, and boot (mis) placement might all be connected. The PO upgraded to a CDI furler and 135% genoa headsail. Is it possible that, from this installation, the rigging was "tampered" with? I'm wondering if, as Dave suggested, my rigging may be too tight and putting undue stress on the structure of the vessel. I will certainly consider finding or fabricating a larger and/or stronger backing plate as mentioned by Fred, and then having someone with some experience rig the turnbuckles properly. I certainly would not want the shrouds to fail at the worst possible moment. Although, I must say, I had the old lady in some fairly rough seas and high gusting winds in late November on St. Andrew bay in Panama City, Florida, and they showed no sign of weakness (knock on fiberglass.)
 
Jun 2, 2004
649
Hunter 23.5 Calgary, Canada
JL, Everyone here (especially DaveC) will tell you that the boat isn't designed to have a 135% genoa. Mast-head rig, inboard fixed jib block as opposed to an outer track with movable block, etc.

My boat doesn't have the distortion and I'm pretty sure my backing plate is the same as yours. I'm only guessing, but for the shrouds to be so tight as to warp the gunwhale like that I would think they'd be so tight as to make it difficult to get the mast all the way up. I don't have to loosen my shrouds to lower and raise the mast. IOW, they must have been tightened after raising. Also when that tight, I suspect if one twanged them like a guitar string you'd get quite a clean-sounding and sustaining "note" (although the plastic boot might rattle and deaden it). Mine _almost_ make a clean tone, but still border a bit on a "twap" sound which dies off fairly quickly. Not very scientific, I know.
 
Dec 2, 2003
751
Hunter 260 winnipeg, Manitoba
Can't tell for sure but from one of your photos it looks like one of the turn buckles is shorter than the other three - could be a foreshortening or optical illusion. Agree with Rick though on our 260 we have no distortion.
 
Jan 13, 2017
34
Hunter 23.5 Panama City, Florida
Thanks for all of your input and suggestions so far. I'm sure that checking for proper rigging is in order. The owners manual has a short section on setting the sideways angle and rake of the mast, so I'll probably start there. The PO moved the jib blocks to accommodate the genoa, I was pretty sure he said is was a 135 but I'll take a gander on the sail for markings. It may be a 110 as it doesn't extend back much farther that the mast. Maybe a longer support bracket is in order to make up for whatever damage/distortion has occurred that will not reform with proper rigging. Any other comments or suggestions are welcomed.
 
Jun 8, 2004
10,049
-na -NA Anywhere USA
JL Stratton;
Thanks for the photos. That will help a lot.
First, you have the smaller turnbuckle boot covers that barely fit over the turnbuckles. If you ever take the mast down, replace them with the next size up so they will turn more freely and put the cap on the other end. They are there so the jib sheets or other ropes, oops I said bad word so I will call them lines, will not catch the cotter pins or rings which if they come off, the turnbuckles will turn on you while sailing and loose a rig as they are designed to cover those turnbuckles. I noted some hose below the turnbuckle clevis pins. Good idea to help keep the turnbuckles from catching but when raising the mast always keep a look at them anyway to insure that the turnbuckle studs are not catching or bending.

Looking at the bar the chain plate is attached to was the proper size for manufacture but adding a longer one will not hurt. I did note when exploding the picture, the gel coat is cracked forward only, not the fiberglass. I think but not really an issue but helps to suggest what I am going to discuss.

Looking at the mast, I tend to think I am seeing a slight bend backwards. That would tend to make me think the previous owner overtightened the lower shrouds to keep the furler taunt due to a 135% genoa which most would vs. tightening the upper shrouds. Loosening the lowers a little will help. Now for news you do not want to hear and it will be up to you what you want to do. Your boat was designed for a max 110% jib lapper because this is a B&R rig that does not require a back stay. When the mast rig was being designed, the idea was to put more sail into the mainsail for more power where it should be thus eliminating the big genoa. From my experience, the boat sails faster, flatter so when heeling,, no more than a 12-14 degree heel by sail control either reducing or reefing. You will go faster but you are overpowered with that 135 genoa even in light air. In light air, I would have a A symmetrical spinnaker vs. larger genoa not to mention set up of the sheet lines. A lot has to do with the larger mainsail as designed. Essentailly with the larger main and 110 jib lapper, the sail equates to a 140 genoa with a standard main if designed that way. The larger sail and more power in it will cause the furler to sag more requiring more tightening of the lower shrouds which probably is the root cause. I hope this makes sense.
If I owned the boat, I would rethink this 135 to a smaller sail or 110 and purchasing a 110 unless you already have one.
JL, private message to you with cell phone if you want to discuss this further.
 

Fred

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Sep 27, 2008
502
Catalina 28 mkii 745 Ottawa, Ontario, CA
When I first got the boat I sailed it in gusty wind and it was scary because the rig started oscillating/flogging. The lee shroud seemed to go slack at times. I tuned the rig with a LOOS gauge. The gauge documentation recommends a preload range dependent on the diameter of the rigging. I tuned for the lower end of the range and the shrouds are plenty tight. This did improve the stability of the rig when sailing.

The shrouds are so tight that I cannot fly any pennants off the shrouds because it makes the shroud vibrate like guitar strings which is very annoying in the cabin.

I do not loosen the shrouds when raising lowering the mast but it is very difficult to get the forestay pinned up. It sometimes scares me how much tension I have to put on the mast raising tackle to get the fore stay pin in/out. (When tensioning to pin-up the forestay I usually tie off the main halyard to the pulpit just in case the mast raising tackle gives up.)

JL... keep us informed of your design for an updated backing plate. Would you suggest solid bar or some type of U-channel for stiffness? I was thinking of making a backing plate long enough so that it would also support a mid-ship cleat which would be very useful for spring lines or hanging fenders.
 
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Likes: justsomeguy
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
That constuction technique for attaching shrouds is clearly marginal. Combined with age (20+ years?), shroud tension could cause the deformation, in particular is the tension was above spec. Structurally, it is relying on the lip to support the entire rig loading.

The crazing could be a result of that long-term deformation, or from shock-loading during strong weather.

The shape of the existing metal bar limits its effectiveness to distribute the load; it should have a 3-D structure (U-shaped) if it expected to be able to resist flexing.
 
Jun 8, 2004
10,049
-na -NA Anywhere USA
thru experience over the years, never tuned with a Loos guage or anything like that. taught by the old timers and worked well for the Hunter trailerables. What I stated above is solid experience with these boats.
 
Jan 13, 2017
34
Hunter 23.5 Panama City, Florida
Thanks again for all the information and suggestions. I'll keep you posted on any shroud support bar upgrades and other fixes. Justsomeguy, on closer inspection of the photo, it does look like the lip was shaved to accommodate the support bar. Dave, I'll be sure to call you and I'll start saving now for a standard jib sail or a smaller genoa. To think, I was all impressed by this 135 genoa when purchasing the boat with previous owner's recent purchase of new sails. The sails on this boat are not much more than a year old. I believe they are made by peak and called "trilateral" sails. I must admit, during my most recent sail (the only time we had decent wind) we had to partially furl the headsail because of overpowering and whipping the boat into an uncomfortable (for my wife) lean. So, anyone have a standard furling jib they want to sell or trade for a 135 genoa?
 

Fred

.
Sep 27, 2008
502
Catalina 28 mkii 745 Ottawa, Ontario, CA
Per DC recommendation for use of an asymmetrical spinnaker... I have such a sail and have flown it a few times in light but steady winds. I do not find that it provides any advantage in terms of boat speed except under these (very light) wind conditions where the usual foresail would tend to collapse due to light winds. It is fun, and colorful to use though on lazy days.

My question is the running rigging for this sail. The times that I have used the sail, I have simply used the jib halyard (otherwise unused since I have roller furling on the head sail). This is not ideal and some may say somewhat risky since the jib halyard exits the mast below the hounds and hence can interfere with the forestay (get hung up or cause fraying) when used with the spinnaker. What is the simplest recommended solution to this situation?
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