Sailing DDW, poled out ...

Sep 30, 2013
3,541
1988 Catalina 22 North Florida
How much belly do you want, if any, in a poled out jib or Genoa running DDW, or nearly DDW? And what is the ideal placement of the clew, fore-and-aft?

My experimentation with these factors have not made much difference in boat speed, but I keep meaning to ask the experts about it anyway.
 
Jul 20, 2005
2,422
Whitby 55 Kemah, Tx
IMHO (I am no expert), You don't want it flat. You want some curve to it. How much depends on the angle of the sail to the wind and speed of wind. The more perpendicular to the wind the less curve you want as the wind speed around the backside decreases. As to what angle you set (clew location) I think depends on the wind strength and angle. I try to get the max pull area of the sail pointing as much forward as I can. I just have a 105 jib so I need 15 knots true wind to go DDW with just the jib poled out to make 5 knots. A little off DDW (like awa of 160) I pole the jib to windward and set the main to leeward with boom preventer tight. This works great on up to awa of 135 and is fast. I can't go DDW wing and wing due to my 30 degree swept back spreaders.

Most sailors do not like DDW but I like it a lot. A lot of gentle rolling but it is easy on the boat. I've never been in a situation where it would be dangerous though - just max of 10 foot waves.
 
Jan 19, 2010
12,368
Hobie 16 & Rhodes 22 Skeeter Charleston
My crew (daughters) love sailing wing-and-wing, "just point the end of the tiller towards the sail that is collapsing .... anyway, it keeps them occupied. On our lake, the wind shifts constantly so it is a lot of work.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Its a great question.

In particular on a genoa, we want some curve to the sail, as the leading edge (leech) WILL act as foil and generate lift, if there is enough curve to the sail to allow 1) pressure differential and 2) enough curved surface for the breeze to stay attached to the back side of the sail.

The same thing happens on the main, but not to the same degree because the sail is set more square to the wind. But some shape (ease outhaul and halyard) creates shape and a foil effect.
 
May 17, 2004
2,099
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
Mates: If you go to my web site, www.sailtrimproducts.com, you'll find an article I wrote regarding sailing downwind. It's a basic explanation written specifically for beginner sailors and is not a scientific explanation. Probably other stuff could have been added but I wanted to keep it simple.
 
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Likes: rgranger
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
Curvature is a great theory but think about the apparent wind speed and I think you will see that you basically do not want to DDW at any time as all you have is a piece of cloth and not an airfoil. Basically the "wing" is stalled DDW and if you sheet in to get a curve you decrease the exposed sail area that is dragging you ddw. So......don't sail DDW and get the advantages of using the foresail as an airfoil.
With all that said, if you are in 15+ knot trade winds and your boat has a 7 knot hull speed do you really care if your foresail is a bag or an airfoil..... you probably will not get any speed gain above hull speed no matter what the angle of sail is.
 
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Likes: Franklin
Mar 26, 2011
3,410
Corsair F-24 MK I Deale, MD
I can't go DDW wing and wing due to my 30 degree swept back spreaders.
Actually, this is a common misconception. I do it all the time and it is considerably faster VMG DDW that reaching with main and genoa (the chute is faster). As Jackdaw pointed out, the key is getting some flow around both leaches.

If you believe reaching is faster, calculate VMG DDW and see. Unless your boat is VERY fast on a reach, I seriously doubt it (mine is a cat and will reach at double digits--this is still often faster). for example, if you are making 6kt DDW, you would have to reach at 8.6 kt to be equal (not surfing--average), which very few boats can do. If they can, I bet they're a handful in rough water. It is also better down rivers and in confined channels (just jibe one sail on the turns).

And here is down wind racing advise from J-World:
http://jworldannapolis.com/wing-and-wing-and-win/

In this picture I am going 8-9 DDW. I was reaching a few minutes before, but the VMG was about the same and sail in waves at 12kt is tiresome. The chute is too much in those conditions.

http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/2010/09/simple-jib-lead-adjustment-for-cruising.html
 
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Jul 20, 2005
2,422
Whitby 55 Kemah, Tx
you are on a cat. Your spreaders are not swept back 30 degrees....itis your shrowd that is....big difference. I do not like my sail on my spreaders for days on end so I have to pull it in.
 

Kermit

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Jul 31, 2010
5,657
AquaCat 12.5 17342 Wateree Lake, SC
How much belly do you want, if any, in a poled out jib or Genoa running DDW, or nearly DDW?
I have more belly than I want. And way more than my wife wants me to have. Point of sail makes no difference. Too much belly is too much belly. It's not a pretty sight.
 
Jan 1, 2006
7,064
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
Back to sailing: On the question of having the sail lay over the spreaders I don't mind too much. I can see that would be bad for long cruising passages. But on a half hour race leg, I don't think it's so bad. I used to do it all the time on the H356, my Mark 25, my friend's Tartan 33, the J32C, j105 and J109. Hopefully there are some spreader patches but you can have the main sail laying over swept back spreaders without damage. I've tried tacking down wind in club races and the legs just aren't long enough for this to pay off.
The second point is about Thinwater's picture. If you enlarge it, I think you see the top leeward tell tails on the forward part of the sail are streaming towards the middle. And maybe even the aft tell tails are streaming. This is visual evidence of what Jackdaw posted. The middle, I can't see so well at magnification and the lowers aren't in the picture. So as to the question of how much depth in the sail, I would suggest looking at those tell tails. If you are getting flow, you are getting lift. You'll never see it in the bunt tell tails (As shown on Thinwater's pic), but you might on the fore and aft. If you can't get flow on those, I'd just go for barn door mode. In higher winds, there will be just stall vortices, I think. But you won't care because you'll be doing hull speed.