Plan to Save or to Abandon the Ship?

[Kings Gambit]

There's a thread in progress about the cost of having a life raft aboard; but leaving the boat for a life raft should be the last option played to avoid drowning; so I've read. I'd like to hear what should happen before that! Seems to me that boats might sink if holed, rolled, or severely pooped. What should be integrated into a boat's seagoing plan is a "de-watering" strategy for each of those possibilities. In the modern boats with sail drives like my Bavaria, there is no deep bilge. The bottom is fairly flat with a bolted keel so the "bilge" is flat. When water is in there it sloshes from side to side rather than collecting in one place where it can be pumped out. The one electric bilge pump installed is in such an idiotic location that water would have to be above the floor boards to reach it; otherwise--pump by hand. If the boat had significant water but was hard on the port tack neither of those pumps could pump it out (not in contact). How many electric bilge pumps should a 38-40 boat like that one have, and what should be their joint capacities in GPH, I wonder? Has anyone here had to use their bilge pump(s) in an emergency?

 

[Benny17441]

I have said it before; the bilge pump in a leisure craft is merely a convenience item to pump out automatically any incidental water that collects in the bilge. For shallow bilges a smart water resistance pump works best. Now if you want to have some pumps aboard to help get water out in the event of an accident you need to be looking at pumps rated for 4,000 GPH with 2" drain hoses or better. A 120V shore powered gusher pump can provide some protection when the boat is docked and unattended.

 

[Kings Gambit]

I've read that it's possible to install very-high-capacity engine (belt)-driven bilge pumps on Yanmars; capacities higher than 4,000 gal/hr. Add that to a couple of a high capacity DC electrics, strategically placed, and a boat might be de-watered quickly if pooped or rolled (assuming the engine will restart in the latter). De-watering might keep up with a 1" hole at 4 ft below waterline.

 

[Rich Stidger]

I was told by an old sailing buddy of mine that the most efficient de-watering device is a scared man with a 5-gallon bucket. He claimed to speak from experience.

Seriously I agree with the other posts here. I doubt it is possible to have enough pumps of sufficient capacity in the event of a major hole. Maybe have a plan and a collision blanket to slow the ingress of water.

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

The concept of not carrying a life raft as some means of motivation seems ridiculous to me. If anyone has spent any length of time in one at sea, they know it's an incredibly harrowing and dangerous experience used only when no other conceivable option exists.

 

[Kings Gambit]

Yeah, but you need time to get it deployed and get into it, etc. If it takes 500 gal of seawater (4,000 lb) to sink my boat, she'll go down in 18 min if water is coming in through a 1" hole at 2 ft depth that cannot be plugged. That's an ingress rate of about 1600 GPH (27 GPM). A high-capacity bilge pump could handle that for a while until batteries run down; but indefinitely if running off the engine [assuming plenty of fuel]. What if I had two of 'em or one with twice the capacity? A 2" hole and she goes down in less than 5 min. Those two pumps running and you could get 10 min. A guy with a 5 gal bucket might put out 150 GPH for ONE hour only, if that. Motivation strong--endurance not strong enough.

 

[Bill Roosa]

Well the obivous solution is stick a plug in the 1" hole right?!!! a hole or thru hull etc is not going to be that hard to "stopper up". Now when the Orca torpedos' you....... and you get a 5' crack in the hull........
remember, always step up into the life raft.
actually this is probably not much harder than the 1" hole as all you need is a tarp and some rope to secure it over the outside of the hull over the crack. Water pressure will force the tarp into the crack and the ropes just keep it from coming off when you get underway after cleaning out your pants.

 

[Bill Roosa]

As for a de-watering strategy, all the above assume you do nothing to stop/slow the ingress of water soooooo
do that first,
tear out the cabinetry etc to get to the leak and stick a plastic covered cushion on it and brace it with an oar or parts you ripped off the cabinetry. Once you have the leak "under control" start the bucket brigade and man the pumps

 

[Kings Gambit]

True, but I'm also thinking that you just got pooped by a crashing rogue wave that sent your washboards asunder and/or stove in a port light or two. You know there's another one or two out there coming your way. Water is already thigh high and the floor boards are floating. A wimpy bilge pump and couple of guys w/ buckets might take 30 min to de-water fully. Plus, you're getting bounced around, etc. Crew is screaming "life raft." Something similar happened to Walkabout, a sailboat that got caught in one of the hurricanes that hit Hawaii a couple of weeks ago. Boat's gone b/c an attempt to rescue a terrified crew member to a container ship damaged the sailboat and it had to be abandoned. No insurance.

 

[Delezynski]

Did any of you see the Yachting Monthly series of Youtube videos of holed boats?

The first video I watched was;
Link is; http://youtu.be/bRhcXBtmPQs?list=UUaO9orJHxkML8rpcKkILPIw

Sure did get my attention! They did a lot more "crash test" videos that are fun to watch AND VERY informative!!!

A LOT of good info.

Greg

 

[All U Get]

We were in out 30 foot Catalina and had water backflow in the autobilge pump 3/4 inch line. I didn't know the stern outlet was below the following seas until the bilge was overflowing. I pumped the hand pump in the cockpit, checked below and called USCG in rapid order. My wife at the helm turned toward shore which put the following seas on our beam and the outlet was once again out of the water. The boat had filled amazingly fast and also emptied before the USCG came aboard, about 20-25 minutes since we were 10 miles off-shore. I added a vented loop to that line.

All U Get

 

[Gunni]

Something similar happened to Walkabout, a sailboat that got caught in one of the hurricanes that hit Hawaii a couple of weeks ago. Boat's gone b/c an attempt to rescue a terrified crew member to a container ship damaged the sailboat and it had to be abandoned. No insurance.

That is an entirely different concern- being weather savvy and avoiding a storm that followed a long predicted course. There are a hundred ways to get into trouble and relying on your electrical system, and an engine raw water pump to save you is a very limited contingency plan. Look at the accident reports - flooding from random strikes are rare, loss of rudder/steering, groundings, collision, or dismasting...not so much. Do you have redundant steering? Navigation? Can you cut away a rig? Do you have a qualified crew? If only Bob Redford had a handheld VHF radio and a GPS EPIRB his recent movie would have had a much less dramatic plot.

 

[capta]

In a hurricane off Fiji, getting capsized three times, tearing the main companionway hatches off the boat and filling her with water three times, I'd guess would be about as close to dying as one could come, and still be around afterward to talk about it.
No amount of planning or preparation can do anything to mitigate a situation like that. It was extremely fortunate we did not lose the rig, but being a 65 year old gaff ketch, the main was a recently rerigged tree (literally), so that was a bit of good fortune.
Absolutely the most important thing in my arsenal of knowledge was what I'd learned by reading "Once is Enough", by Miles Smeeton.
Looking in stunned shock at the carnage around us after the first capsize, I knew exactly what I had to do and how to do it after reading that book. You all may say that the bilge pumps on most of our boats are incapable of what's needed, but I was thankful for my Rule and a clutch drive 1 1/2" impeller pump on the front of the engine when the water was waist high or so. Not to say we didn't bail for hours with buckets as well, once we'd stopped the ingress of water, but those bilge pumps definitely did their part in our survival.
So, the point is, if you find yourself in a position like that, no check lists or back up check lists are going to help. Hard work and being educated are, IMO, what will get you through. I sincerely believe to this day, if we had jumped in the life raft we would have died a horrible death as it was flicked across the seas by the wind and waves.
Drogues and sea anchors may be fine in some cases (that's another thread) but in our case, we were trying to claw off the second longest barrier reef on earth reef, so we actually had sail up and were trying to make way against 100+ knots of wind.

 

[sd1953]

I had seen and marked this story previously about how quickly things can happen.
http://themarineinstallersrant.blogspot.com/2010/10/one-hundred-and-twenty-seconds.html
If you get a small hole in the hull you have options. You may not always have options. Based on that, having a life raft is a no-brainer. There is no motivation if there is no where to go. If you go with the conventional wisdom (and I do NOT mean that sarcastically) to "step up into the life raft" you will have done all that is possible to save your boat beforehand. But having a place to step up into can save your life.
I am not as experienced as lots of sailors on this forum, but I just do not see this as an either or choice.

 

[Delezynski]

IF you are in dread of sinking, take a look at;
http://www.yachtwork.com/product-bilge.htm

That pump you can install yourself sure could get rid of a LOT of water FAST.

BUT, Capta said it best!

Greg

 

[Kings Gambit]

Hard work and being educated are, IMO, what will get you through. I sincerely believe to this day, if we had jumped in the life raft we would have died a horrible death as it was flicked across the seas by the wind and waves.

Hair-raising account! Thanks for bringing our discussion into sharper focus! Numerous accounts of trying to deploy a life raft in extreme conditions (high wind and seas) converge on the situations that the raft was not reachable/deployable in short time [if inside a container], or that it could not be controlled for deployment in excessive wind, or that it could not be boarded by all hands, or that it flipped repeatedly, etc. Also, there are the accounts where crew in life rafts did not survive whereas the boat they had abandoned did not sink. Accounts of when they were successfully deployed and saved lives are fewer; but that did happen recently in the Baja Ha-Ha when a J-boat struck a whale and lost its rudder, leaving a big hole at the transom of the boat. All of the crew got off safely; but no big wind at the time. I dunno; would not having upgraded [maximized] de-watering capability be less of a nagging worry than putting to sea without a [$4,000 to $6,000] life raft?

 

[capta]

I had seen and marked this story previously about how quickly things can happen.
http://themarineinstallersrant.blogspot.com/2010/10/one-hundred-and-twenty-seconds.html
If you get a small hole in the hull you have options. You may not always have options. Based on that, having a life raft is a no-brainer. There is no motivation if there is no where to go. If you go with the conventional wisdom (and I do NOT mean that sarcastically) to "step up into the life raft" you will have done all that is possible to save your boat beforehand. But having a place to step up into can save your life.
I am not as experienced as lots of sailors on this forum, but I just do not see this as an either or choice.

There is a whole education to be had in "damage control" (usually paired with firefighting) aboard a vessel. Anything from a sail slung over the side to cover a large hole, to a mattress placed inside and braced, can save the lives of all onboard and the boat. Bracing or shoring up broken bulkheads, sealing leaks and closing holes are all things one should understand before one ventures offshore. Sailing offshore without this knowledge is tantamount to criminal neglect, IMO. Seamanship is more than splicing, knowing knots, driving and sailing a boat well, drogues or sea anchors and maintaining your vessel properly. It is also about learning what you need to know to stay alive when you are way beyond your plans or preparations. Unfortunately, communication equipment to use the "get out of trouble free" card seems to be where many sailors place their faith these days, instead of in learning to survive on their own. I'd happily trade a satphone (which may or may not work in a boat half full of water) for a couple of dozen self tapping screws, a few bungs, some wood of various lengths and shapes, plenty of small stuff and some underwater seam compound, in a real emergency.

 

[Jackdaw]

so we actually had sail up and were trying to make way against 100+ knots of wind.

Seriously??

 

[capta]

Seriously??

You bet your sweet bippy!

 

[Jackdaw]

You bet your sweet bippy!

Wow. Could you share how you managed that?

I've only done it in 50, and that was huge ordeal. I simply can't image it in 8 times the wind pressure.

Even bare poles, with the boat at 40 degrees into that breeze I figure you would get turned down then knocked down flat.