On Demand Propane Water Heater?

Maine Sail · Oct 26, 2010

Guys,

I spoke with the ABYC again today and got some more information.

The ABYC is getting calls on a regular basis from irate boat owners who have installed on-demand water heaters who are now being told by their insurance companies to rip them out or lose coverage.

Like you guys they bought the bogus marketing by the sketchy, off shore, water heater makers, hook line and sinker. There is not one single on-demand propane water heater that either myself or the ABYC are aware of that meet the minimum safety standards that is non-vented, not one.

These heaters are also not marinized properly and usually do not use marine grade components so the "safety" features claimed by the manufacturers only work so long as corrosion does not kill them first and the ABYC has seen numerous "issues". They are also NOT ignition protected meaning they CAN start a fire and should never be located or share the same air as an engine compartment or fuel tank. Alternators, fuses, starters and bilge blowers must all be "ignition protected" these units are not.

As I said earlier they have not specifically addressed vent-free on-demand heaters because the ABYC and ANSI standards and requirements already preclude them from use.

You guys can always do what you want on your own boats, until of course, they get flagged by your insurance company. Many surveyors, and three that I know personally, will flag an on-demand instantly. They are not going to risk their reputation or career on letting a device that so clearly misses the mark in compliance, with minimum safety standards, to let it ruin their reputation if a fire or explosion or death ensues.

PLEASE be careful and don't always believe what you read on the net, my writings included, but if you don't believe me please do your own research..

The Excel heater DOES NOT meet ABYC standards or ANSI combustion standards as written for the marine environment, this means it also will not satisfy most any good surveyor or insurance underwriter if flagged as unsafe. Any surveyor who does not flag one in an insurance survey is a terrible surveyor who does not know their arse from elbow.

Just my .02

EDIT : 8/11/2012 - I just had to uninstall/remove my first ventless, on-demand water heater per an insurance survey!! Owner is IRATE that the company Excel LIED TO HIM!!

Stu Jackson · Oct 26, 2010

Well, I take my #60 post back. It's easier to use a Solar shower, and much safer. We've simply revised our showering habits to when there is hot water available.

Your boat, your life.

BobM · Oct 26, 2010

I think it depends on use. The coleman unit looks handy if you set it up in the cockpit added fitting to your system to take the hot water in. In my case, I could do this via the plumbing for the deck shower I installed in the cockpit. For "fair weather" use I don't see any problem with it, but personally I would install both a CO2 sensor. I really should have one on board already.

Regarding electric instant on water heaters. I have a coworker who's brand new house burned to the ground before she slept in it once because an electrician apparently improperly installed one. The killer is that the insurance company has refused to pay because of an irregularity with the address. The house was built on a corner and the town had them change the driveway from one street to another and the insurance company is saying that they didn't insure the house with the "new address"...scumbags.

Maine Sail · Oct 26, 2010

Stephen Trapani said:
Mainsail, I appreciate your contribution, thanks. I don't agree with you though. Here's why. Just because a particular appliance is not certified by a particular organization doesn't mean it's not safe. The Excel is certified by BVG, which is a Global certification organization founded in 1828. Here is their link: http://www.bureauveritas.com/wps/wcm/connect/bv_com/Group/Home/About-Us/Our-Business/Certification/

Here is a blurb from the Excel website about the ventfree ODS safety feature:

"ODS technology originated in Europe, and has been widely used in European gas heating appliances for more than 45 years with an outstanding record of safety and then adopted by U.S. manufacturers for all vent-free gas products such as logsets and camper heaters.
Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) accident/incident data accumulated since 1980 show an unparalleled 100% safety record on ODS-equipped vent-free gas heating appliances. Industry engineers say the ODS pilot is to gas what a circuit breaker is to electricity."

Here is the link for Excel:
http://www.excelamerica.com/calentadores_eng.htm

I'm pretty sure my boat is loaded with products (mostly electric) that are not marine rated and require regular inspection and careful use. The Excel looks as safe as anything pretty much the normal stuff I see on boats.

Stephen,

Your boat, your choice. Still does not change the fact that the Excel is NOT a unit that passes ABYC muster as safe appliance per the applicable US marine safety standards. You as a boat owner do not technically have to comply with this UNLESS your surveyor flags it.

The combustion standards ABYC has laid out are very specific to marine use. The reasons are already well outlined in this thread as to why this does not meet current accepted US safety standards. When and if you come up for an insurance survey your insurance company may very well ask you to yank it.

EDIT : 8/11/2012 - I just had to uninstall/remove my first ventless, on-demand water heater per an insurance survey!! Owner is IRATE that the company Excel LIED TO HIM!!

I have since spoken with two other surveyors and both said they have had recent correspondence from their organizations discussing vent-free on demand devices on boats and reminding them that there are no vent-free unattended devices that meet the safety standards set forth by ANSI and ABYC for marine use.

NAMS and SAMS surveyors are supposed to be surveying to ABYC standards. You may find a hack surveyor who will push your boat through an insurance survey but I strongly doubt you'd find a reputable SAMS or NAMS surveyor that would, though I am sure it has been done.

BTW recent codes around vent free gas log sets for fire places have changed dramatically. Now in the state of Maine a vent-free gas log set MUST have the flue of the chimney open. Not so much vent free anymore.

I worked in the hydronics industry for many years selling multiple brands of water heaters in gas, oil, electric and hydroninc. I have seen companies like Excell before where they make all kinds of misleading claims, until someone gets killed, then, bam, they are gone from the US market. The only difference is that when I was working in that industry everything went though P&H wholesalers and the scamsters never got much of a foot hold. We would see them at ASHRAE, the big industry trade show, looking for representation, and the minute you asked for US standards compliance and approvals they went silent or tried to skirt the issue saying "any day now"... Now with eBay they make all the claims they want and people eat it up.

After talking with Eric J. today at ABYC it appears this is a major issue and there are many unhappy boaters out there who have been told by their insurance companies that the vent-free device must go.

I hate to see people spend good money only to be told that the device must go to keep your insurance.

If you get a chance please send me a copy of their installation manual. It is non-existent on their web site just like a phone number is. I would love to see what they require for make up air, room size per BTU, and clearances.

compassmarineservices AT gmail DOT com

JoeD · Oct 26, 2010

Maine Sail Wrote ". I have seen companies like Excell before where they make all kinds of misleading claims"

Can you please tell me the Misleading Claims Excell has made?

Joe

Maine Sail · Oct 26, 2010

JoeD said:
Maine Sail Wrote ". I have seen companies like Excell before where they make all kinds of misleading claims"

Can you please tell me the Misleading Claims Excell has made?

Joe

The quote below is one I find quite amusing and, yes, misleading. It is geared to make one think that if you have enough "ventilation" then installing this is perfectly fine on a boat, it is not if you follow current US marine safety standards.. New builders CAN NOT install one and even DIY's, who technically could, may get flagged under an insurance survey and then need to yank it. They don't mention that ANYWHERE but are more than happy to take your hard earned money. They then link you to West Marine, who does not even sell "vent-free" LPG heaters, wonder why

, nor even addresses that in the article they linked to. Here's the link and NO mention of LPG appliance venting LINK.

Why don't they quote a some relevant standards that are applicable to LPG appliances on boats such as the ABYC A-26 standard instead of an article on boat ventilation that has nothing to do with LPG appliances? I am sure buyers would want to read the most current set of marine safety standards we have for the marine market when making this important decision..

From Excel:
"Perfect for Sailboats and Cabin Cruisers with active ventilation systems in place. For More info on adequate ventilation practices for boats , RV's and mobile homes please link to: http://www.westmarine.com In West Advisor use the Searchword: Ventilation"

"Perfect for Sailboats and Cabin Cruisers with active ventilation systems in place."

They might want to add "uninsured, used sailboats or cabin cruisers", to be less misleading, because new builders CAN'T install these and if you have a competent marine survey, and a marine insurance policy, they are going to flag it. No amount of "ventilation" changes the fact that it is a vent-free device which does not meet the ABYC standards.

That is what I consider misleading! They sell it for use in boats yet it does not meet the safety standards of largest body we have for setting safety standards in the US marine industry, the ABYC.

From ABYC A-26

26.5.1 LPG and CNG fueled appliances shall not be installed in spaces containing internal combustion engines, their fuel tanks, or joints and fittings of their fuel systems.

26.5.3 Appliances shall meet the combustion requirements of ANSI Z 21.57 Recreational Vehicle Cooking Gas Appliances.
(This standard also covers water heaters)

26.5.4.1.1 venting of combustion products from the appliance.

26.5.8 The design and installation of LPG and CNG appliances and systems shall provide for the consumption of air and the venting of exhaust products.

26.5.9 Pilot lights and other automatic ignition devices shall be permitted only in appliances with room sealed combustion systems.
(The Excel is automatic ignition)

26.5.10 Unattended appliances shall incorporate a room sealed combustion system.
(The Excel by definition is an "unattended appliance")

26.6.1 Exhaust products shall be ducted to the exterior of the vessel and designed to minimize water entry, back draft, and exhaust re-entry through any hull openings, ventilators, opening ports, hatches, windows.
(The Excel is vent-free and does NOT duct to the exterior of the vessel)

26.6.2 Flues shall be routed and sized to ensure complete discharge of the products of combustion outside the craft, and shall not be obstructed by an accumulation of water.
(The Excel does not even have a flue so CAN NOT completely discharge the products of combustion to outside the craft)

26.6.2.1 The flue system shall be continuous and sealed from the appliance to its terminus outside the craft.
(Nope does not meet this either)

26.6.2.2 Flue terminus shall not be positioned within 20 inches (500mm) of a refueling fitting or fuel tank vent.
(Well, the good news is that it won't be within 20" the bad news is the flue terminus is non-existent),

27.6.2.4 The flue system shall be accessible for inspection.
(very hard to meet this)

Definitions:

Unattended Appliance - appliances intended to function without frequent attention by an operator, and that may cycle
on and off automatically, such as refrigerators, thermostatically controlled cabin heaters, and water heaters.

Room Sealed Combustion System - a combustion system in which incoming air, the combustion chamber, and the outgoing products of combustion are sealed from the boat interior.

alexco38 · Oct 26, 2010

ODS (Oxygen Depletion Safety shutoff device ) means the unit shut off if not enough oxygen. That doesn't means it can run in an enclosed area like a boat.

Secondly, all combustion create carbon monoxide. Just where it goes is the question?

Would I live with the notion that some vent-less heater is creating CO in an enclosed space where I stays worries me a lot.

BTW, the unit cost $499, twice the price of a Force 10 water tank so what gives.

Again your boat your choice.

Alan · Oct 26, 2010

MS, you have given many folks here benefit of your advice, much of which is most appreciated. That said on, demand water heaters have been used by millions of homes, RV's and boats throughout the world because it is an effective and efficient means of producing hot water. I've used one for decades. If there were major flaws with these units you can be certain that they would not be in the wide use they now are. Whether ABYC is willing or not to sanction their use is an internal political matter with that group. Certainly insurance companies are going to opt out of coverage simply to because they can. However, to deny insurance coverage is no indictment of the safety or effectiveness of these units. Yes fires happen and boats burn for many reasons but few if any can be traced to the use of an on demand water heater. These days boats are equipped with CO detectors as well as fire detectors. With proper installation and use there is no valid reason (save the insurance company)(or maybe big brother) for not having one.

JoeD · Oct 26, 2010

ABYC is just another standards organization. Much like ASE for the Auto or ASME which is for industrial applications.

Go to their website and the thing that really stands out is they are selling everything from Business memberships for $245.00 a year to Tech Cert. The problem is they are very slow to up grade and change.

Yes it is a good thing to have standards. Just like building Codes which are really all over the place. Europe has its standards which conflict with some of ours.

The on demand heaters are used in Homes, Offices, Hotels and many more applications. Yes, those are vented. The one I installed was vented that is why it was about a hundred dollars more. Have a Bosch in my home and one in my business.

The point is they are no more dangerous than a Mister Buddy Heater used on many boats. Yes you must becareful. Have used the Mister buddy heaters as space heaters for years.

As far as an offshore supplier most of the things you buy have off shore parts. Look at Harley Davidson motorcycles. Do you have any idea how many parts are from offshore? Lets start from the ground up. Wheel Rims forks and shocks fuel injection ignition Carbs on all carb models. Just to name a few. We don't even want to talk about the boating field.

What ever you do be safe.

Joe

Ross · Oct 26, 2010

There is a misconception floating around here that all burning creats carbon monoxide. This is not true! A properly adjusted gas flame results in complete combustion of the carbon and hydrogen in the gas. BUT you have no assurance that your appliance is perfectly adjusted 100 per cent of the time. Burning charcoal produces carbon monoxide in very large volumes because the smoldering fire isn't hot enough. Add a blower to a charcoal fire and you burn all of the carbon completely and you can melt iron. In the steel mills they use carbon monoxide as a torch fuel for heating purposes.

Maine Sail · Oct 26, 2010

JoeD said:
ABYC is just another standards organization.

Go to their website and the thing that really stands out is they are selling everything from Business memberships for $245.00 a year to Tech Cert. The problem is they are very slow to up grade and change.

Joe

Considering the slowness of IBR, AGA, NSF, SAE, ASME and other organizations I used to deal with the ABYC is pretty reactive. As far as LPG systems are concerned they were updated in July 2006 and vent-free devices were discussed and were plentiful at the time. It was decided that the standards covered them enough, and precluded them, to not warrant any additional language. Changes are driven by individuals, boat yards and industry not just the organization and everyone gets a fair say.

I am involved in the suggestion of a change that goes to committee very soon and I have had to supply a lot of data and research. The change may not even go though this round because the ABYC is very cautious and evidence driven and are still in the data gathering mode. The LPG standards are very well discussed and very carefully structured to apply to boats. What may be safe in an RV or cabin may not be safe on a boat.

Of the 70 some odd standards & technical docs over half have been updated since 2005 and another 20 or so between 2000 & 2004. There are only a few that have not changed since the late 1990's and they are ones that really don't need changing such as "Boat Lifting And Storage". E-11 Marine Electrical was changed in 2008 as was Gasoline Fuel Venting and Cathodic Protection, Potable Water Systems Was updated in 2009 as was Gasoline Systems and a number of others.

JoeD · Oct 27, 2010

MS "Perfect for Sailboats and Cabin Cruisers with active ventilation systems in place. For More info on adequate ventilation practices for boats , RV's and mobile homes please link to: http://www.westmarine.com In West Advisor use the Searchword: Ventilation"

I don't find anything misleading about that statement. They liinked to WM and explain why. Almost every Boat today has a Active Ventilation system. If not would be a mold pit.

Think Ross nailed it in his statememt "There is a misconception floating around here that all burning creats carbon monoxide. This is not true! A properly adjusted gas flame results in complete combustion of the carbon and hydrogen in the gas. BUT you have no assurance that your appliance is perfectly adjusted 100 per cent of the time"

So we can agree to disagree on this one.

On Another note I think that Marine Surveyors should be required to have an Engineering Degree and be a PE, Would like to see Home Inspectors that same. Would clean up the profession.

Joe

Ross · Oct 27, 2010

[
On Another note I think that Marine Surveyors should be required to have an Engineering Degree and be a PE, Would like to see Home Inspectors that same. Would clean up the profession.

Joe[/quote]
This idea would make the cost of a survey or home inspection prohibitive.
I have never been in a home, new or second owner inspected, in which I couldn't find a fault.
I believe that surveys and home inspections should be primarily safety inspections and major structrual inspections. The condition of the sails or the wall to wall carpet should only be a matter of comment. I could get into the minutae for homes or boats which in most cases would be opinions about house or boat keeping and not concerns about safety or structure.

JoeD · Oct 27, 2010

Ross, As an Engineer I find some of the reports by The group we are talking about almost laughable. There must be some way to protect the customer from this these kind of business practices.

I hate expanded Gov. But there is a need to hold the Trade responsible for their actions. The price of a Survey is not cheap. There are some good people out there doing a very good Survey, But that is the exception.

Sorry about the high jack of this thread, Am done with this.

Seattle Scott · Oct 27, 2010

I'm the guy who just installed one. Mainsail is correct, the Excell heater is not ABYC compiant in many regards and I knew that when I bought it. The manufacturer's representation "perfect for boats" was perceived by me as "puffing" an opinion statement not a factual representation. Mainsailil asked about the content of the installation/operation manual. Its about 3 pages ( index card size) and just says mount with 600 mm of clearance over the top of the heater, which I work out to 24 inches. My install has part of an over hang within 12 inches and the rest of the overhead is about 18 inches above the heater. The heater is installed in violaiton of ABYC even if the heater was compliant, because the diesel fuel fill hose is about 5 feet away in the same compartment. If you operate the heater when the boat is heeled, I assume this will cause a fire after some unknown duration of operation. With that said, I have to operate the heater as an attended devise. The gas is shut off at the heater when underway. When at anchor, I will turn the gas on at the heater, then I will turn the solinoid on when I need hot water, then I will turn the hot water facet on for a couple of minutes at a time when taking a shower or doing the dishes. So maybe between 2-10 minutes with the solinoid on and the heater cycling on/off 1-3 times during these periods. Then the solioid is turned off. If I am done with propane for the day I always close the valve at the tank. if I don't get hot water out the faucet within 5 seconds, I will shut the solinoid off. I have a carbon mono detector in the cabin and it works as it starts chirping before the kettle boils in the morning and I have to open a hatch. I installed a passive deck vent between the heater and the cabin and hot air does vent out ( I am sure just a fraction). I have had the heater burning for 8 minutes continuous ( in the closed cockpit locker) and the cabin detector stayed quiet. The heater will be treated just like the galley stove, soliinoid off when appliance not in actual use. I also assumed the heater would not pass a survey so I installed it with an extra 10 feet of gas hose so I can rig it up to be rail mounted when in use and stowed away when not, without having to connect/disconnect water and gas hoses, such that it can be used "not installed within the boat."

Maine Sail · Oct 28, 2010

JoeD said:
MS "Perfect for Sailboats and Cabin Cruisers with active ventilation systems in place. For More info on adequate ventilation practices for boats , RV's and mobile homes please link to: http://www.westmarine.com In West Advisor use the Searchword: Ventilation"

I don't find anything misleading about that statement.

Shocking, though not a surprise, as I think you said you own one. West Marine, Defender, Jamestown Distributors, Hamilton Marine and other reputable chandleries do not sell these devices, because they do not meet minimum industry safety standards. Sadly any unsuspecting buyer can purchase and install one off eBay then find out later that their insurance company is going to drop them for coverage, and that is okay and not "misleading". Ever wonder why WM does not carry them?

You want non-misleading how about stating on your web site that this device DOES NOT MEET ABYC standards and may not be applicable for an insured vessel? That would allow individual boaters to make a MUCH better educated decision. Scott knew all the rules and guidelines and still made an educated decision for himself, that is fine. It is misleading to call them "perfect for boats" then not state the facts as related to the US marine standards.

They are not "perfect for boats" IF it is a new boat, or used boat that requires a survey for insurance coverage. That leaves very few boats that they really are "perfect" for. For you they are "perfect" that's fine, your boat, your choice but they clearly are NOT perfect for new boat builders or used boats requiring insurance coverage. But of course, this is not misleading in any way?

JoeD said:
On Another note I think that Marine Surveyors should be required to have an Engineering Degree and be a PE, Would clean up the profession.

Joe

Really? It seems you, JoeD, have decided that these devices are a safe and a proper installation and perhaps the rest of the industry needs to get their butts in gear, and surveyors should now be engineers? I I misinterpreted your point, please correct me.

If you feel, and I quote; these rules and postings are "laughable" then you really need to take this up with the ABYC not the marine surveyors. Surveyors are bound to ethics and and industry guidelines and vent-free water heaters, no matter how you feel about them, are still not deemed a safe installation by the marine industry.

As I have said many times it is your boat you can do what you want. If however you want to come on a forum read nationally and spread the good word about how excellent these devices are for boats I feel it is my duty to let folks know what the marine industry feels about them and what they may be facing in the event of an insurance survey by a reputable surveyor.

You have every right to challenge the ABYC that I do, even though you are not a member, so I would advise you to take this up with them if you really feel these are appropriate for marine installations.

The surveyors are just doing their jobs and following the INDUSTRY GUIDELINES. I also know a number of surveyors who have engineering degrees that have retired and now do surveying. Still does not change the fact that a vent-free device would be flagged as unsafe engineering degree or not.

If you want change get on the horn to the ABYC or write a letter to them and discuss your issues with the other engineers on the technical committee for LPG....

JoeD · Oct 28, 2010

"Really? It seems you, JoeD, have decided that these devices are a safe and a proper installation and perhaps the rest of the industry needs to get their butts in gear, and surveyors should now be engineers? I I misinterpreted your point, please correct me.
"
MS Quote

You have, The rest of your rant is off also. A little reading comprehension 101 might help. In no way did I ever state that the rules were laughable. Did state some of the Surveys I have read were laughable.

Now lose the chip on your shoulder and we can have a real conversation about the product. I have no dog in this race.

Joe

Maine Sail · Oct 28, 2010

JoeD said:
"Really? It seems you, JoeD, have decided that these devices are a safe and a proper installation and perhaps the rest of the industry needs to get their butts in gear, and surveyors should now be engineers? I I misinterpreted your point, please correct me.
"
MS Quote

You have, The rest of your rant is off also. A little reading comprehension 101 might help. In no way did I ever state that the rules were laughable. Did state some of the Surveys I have read were laughable.

Yous said:

JoeD said:
Ross, As an Engineer I find some of the reports by The group we are talking about almost laughable. There must be some way to protect the customer from this these kind of business practices.

Sorry if I misinterpreted, I obviously did and that is what I said "please correct me". I read that and the comment about surveyors begin required to be engineers as a slam on surveyors as it pertained to this thread and water heaters. Sorry for that if your statement did not apply to vent-free water heaters.

Perhaps you could expand on what exactly you find laughable as it pertains to this thread or vent-free heaters if at all? Perhaps your remark was not in relation to vent-free heaters at all?

JoeD said:
Now lose the chip on your shoulder and we can have a real conversation about the product. I have no dog in this race.

Joe

No chip Joe just a real concern for DIY installers who spend good hard earned money on these devices and then may be forced to rip them out. I find that quite unfair to the consumer/DIY/end user. My dog is that I don't like to see unsuspecting boaters mislead by manufacturers about the application.

Three people on this thread have had the information required to make an educated decision and still made it. That is great. I just feel EVERYONE, not just the three here, should be able to get this information from the MANUFACTURER not by digging around in a forum or by having to join the ABYC or through a surveyor who flags their new install as an unsafe installation.

You and I will have to agree to disagree on Excel's business practices. I find them rather abhorrent and can't see any way they are not acting unethically or are not being misleading. By not being HONEST about the application of these units in US boats, based on current industry accepted safety standards, I feel they are acting unethically and being misleading.

How would you feel if your surveyor flagged your three month old water heater install and your insurance company told you to yank it or lose coverage? I know I would be irate, just as the many customers are who call the ABYC, when this happens. Is that fair to you if your thought the manufacturer was telling you the truth when they said it was "perfect" to install on a boat and you trusted them?

All I want is to see these manufacturers be HONEST about the application of these heaters in US boats as it pertains to current US safety standards and insurance coverage. That is my dog.

Truth be told I would love to have one but would not consider one until they meet the applicable US safety standards for marine use.