Need Rudder and swing keel dimensions (1981, H22)

[SeaTR]

Need Rudder and swing keel dimensions - 1981 H22

I have a 1981 H22 salvage boat that did not have its original rudder and had a repaired swing keel when I bought it. (yes, I've been busy restoring..other things as well)

UPDATE: 03/28/2022---
The saga continues....my rudder failed late last fall (2021) and I'm not sure if I'll go with the previous manufacturer. When I say "failed" I mean the HDPE blade nearly completely sheared just below the pivot point (see attached pix @ post #162). It was made by Rudder Craft, Garden City, ID and in service for 10 yrs. I don't sail her too hard, no races and winds <15 knots. I don't know if this is unexpected for the in-service duration, or not. But I want to know if you have any alternatives / recommendations.

10Q bunches.!!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++​

UPDATE: 03/20/2014---
I'm now in the process of trying to upgrade / replace the swing keel up/down haul installation (pulleys, SS cable, mounting on the swing keel trunk), and need some pictures or descriptions of an 80s H22 swing keel up/down haul installation. I know that mine can't be OEM...just doesn't look like it.

ANY help with this is MUCH APPRECIATED!

++++++++++++++++++++++​

Original post (2019):
I need accurate dimensions on the rudder BLADE, including the blade's shape.. (I've a manufactured rudder stock and tiller already). I'm mostly concerned with ensuring the total area is the same and the rudder's center of effort is located correctly for proper tacking (i.e., I have no ACCURATE idea what the original rudder looked like...there are vague pictures on the web, but...).

The lower 1/3 of the swing keel was damaged previously and repaired. I want to be sure its shape and area are also correct (center of effort for righting force), so I need the swing keel's dimension and shape as well to verify. I have a rough idea just looking at the swing keel's trunk, but can't accurately determine below the hull line.

Snapping off some pictures with tape measure applied is really easy to do...can 'ya help me out??

 

[rockp2]

I have what you need

I have both items removed from my 1981 H22. I also bought mine as a project boat. I am almost complete re-glassing the rudder due to prop strikes, but it is a complete structure, so I can get you what you need. Also, the guy I bought the boat from had found a replacement swing keel which he never mounted. It is currently lashed to the trailer. I will get pics and measurements for you. It may take me a day or two however due to normal work and weather.

I do have to say that you posting here may be a marriage made in heaven for me. I have looked at your pics and it almost appears that you and I may have corresponding hull numbers. Mine is painted the same color as yours and everything else. I would definitely love to keep in touch with you as we both work on our projects. Yours is in better shape than my H22 but I am having a blast doing the restoration. I have always enjoyed working with my hands.

It would be great if I could trade notes with you or pics when I may need something myself. I am in Pennsylvania and my name is Herv.

Thanks!

 

[SeaTR]

Ya you betcha'

Thanks a bunch for your offer. It only took 57 "browsers" to get someone to "pipe up".

I've: completely rewired (electrical and VHF), completely replumbed (water and drains), refurbrished all 3 winches, installed a wood (Ipe) cabinet for the VHF radio-fuse/switch panel-battery voltmeter-bilge pump, installed a backup bilge pump and thru-hull, replaced the swing keel pivot pin and nylon bushing, refinished the holly 'n teak deck boards, resealed the anchor locker, fabricated an adjustable mast crutch, replaced an rebedded both jib sheet cheek blocks, rebedded both chainplates/covers, resealed the companionway, replaced all running rigging, replaced the VHF antenna, and refurbrished all halyard sheeves. Needless to say, I've been busy...and still more to do.


Trade notes? Sure. I'll be posting more pictures in the springtime of work already done, and more as work continues. I am in Connecticut, sail on Long Island Sound, and my name is Charlie.

 

[rockp2]

Perfect!

You have already done many things that I will be doing. My plan is to begin "sea trials " as soon as the weather is warm enough. We have a big lake in northern PA where I will be doing this at. I have a lot of work to do, but like I stated I love it.

My plan is to have my boat in the Chesapeake by the summer. This is my first boat of this type and my sailing experienceis very limited to a Hobie Cat. I owned one wth a friend when I lived in San Diego and believe it or not found another one here in the middle of PA years ago. I sail it on the lake where I live. Not the big lake mentioned above.

You will have a lot of me picking your brain. Great to e-meet you Charlie and I will try to have the pics posted NLT Monday. I am pretty computer and internet savy and have been scouring the internet on everything about H22's. I think there could be more out there to help others out. So, I suggest that we communicate using this site on the H22 specific forum to share experience. I will pass you my personal email and phone number when I post the pics.

I was just up in Mystic in August and was drooling at the boats I saw while taking a small chartered 2-hour sail. It hsa been my dream for many years to blue water cruise, and this is my "training" boat. The great thing about having to restore it is what I am learning down to the smallest details.

Talk to ya soon! -Herv

 

[SeaTR]

Super! can't wait for Monday...

Looking forward to the pics! Yes, "sea trials", that's my immediate goal this spring. Get enough done to support that, then go for the "over-nighter" type projects (i.e., all new cabin cushion foam, install pota-potie, refinish and reinstall the drop leaf dinette table top, clean & flush the PW tank and lines, replace the sink hand pump, install a stove, refinish the cockpit table, bimini / boom tent, replace the companionway steps (Ipe wood), hatch-companionway screening & wind scoops, install shore power connection and charger / inverter?). Eventually, the grandkids will be riding along and safety netting / jack lines will come then. Conveniences such as a rollerfurling will come along sometime.

When do the lakes thaw in Northern PA? My exposure to PA is driving down I-80 on my way to Wisconsin to visit relatives. It's a nice drive down I-81? past srcanton-WB, then the rolling hills the rest of the way on I-80. They ALWAYS seem to have stretches of 20-30 miles of construction going at any given time so one lane is closed...that's a lot of "fun". ;-(

Chesapeake ought to be a blast. I've lived in MD for a short while a long time back, but never sailed the bay. I hear it can be very challenging at times. Hobies ARE fun... I sailed one down in St Croix to try my hand. A friend of mine and I sailed outside the protective reef to the big swells and buried a pontoon in a wave, but thankfully did not capsize...THAT was too exciting!! I learned that you shouldn't ever cleat / lock down the main on catamarans as there is NO weatherhelm . ...'ya fall over, you'll be watching the boat sail away on its own power !! Wet boat sailing is not for me anymore; I'm ready to let the boat do the work instead of me kicking out for ballast. Say goodbye to trapezes and toe straps!

 

[rockp2]

Rudder Pics

OK Charlie,
Here are the pics for the rudder. Couldn't get to the keel this weekend due to work. I tried to present the measurements you would need. Let me know if you can't read any of them.

I have the rudder about half way finished. Some PO must have prop struck the rudder about 52 times (joke). It was in really bad shape though. Some damaged could be fared, some I had to grind down and re-build the layers of glass. After I have finished some of the smaller pin holes I am going to put a new layer of cloth and a new layer of roving before I do the final gel coat. This will seal the seam between the two halves.

It is a foam core sandwiched between 2 halves.

A couple of key notes on the pics: The bottom of the rudder and the trailing (aft) edge (edge with the hole for the mounting/pivoting bolt) are at 90 degrees to each other. So I based everything off of those 2 points. Also, the upper potion of the leading edge is paralell to the lower part of the aft edge. The one thing I could not provide by measurement is the "airfoil" design of the rudder. Hopefully you can pick that up from the pics. If not, let me know and I will try to do something else. Hope these help!

 

[SeaTR]

WOW ! great pix...

Herv,
I must say, this is MUCH more than I had anticipated. Great detailed shots and dimensions. Due to the Kb limits on the website, the file size is limited and some of the shots are pixeled out when trying to blowup, but I can easily extrapolate the details off of the tape measure markings. Good luck with the repair efforts!

I'm looking into a local to manufacture my blade, given these dimensions. I think that I can approximate the "airfoil" shape...

I don't have the rudder post either and am going to have a metalworker friend fab it up. It's made of aluminum I believe (maybe 1/4" or 3/16" plate ??), with a down-haul line and cam lock. Pictures and dimensions of that as well would be great, if you can send 'em.
Charlie

 

[rockp2]

I'll get that for you...

Hey Charlie,

Sorry about that, I didn't realize you needed pics of the aluminum housing. I'll get those for you. I don't even think the thickness is 3/16". Not sure because I am not out there right now. Might be better to go with a thicker guage however. Some PO did weld a couple spots on the seams and there are some rivets on the edge that I don't think were OEM.

With the damage and multiple prop strikes the rudder sustained, I can only imagine there was someway the housing was damaged also.

I can picture it already...

"Sally, come over here and see if you can tell what that funny noise is when I turn the motor. See, watch" .....

BAM, BAM, BAM, BAM

"Do you notice anything?"

"I'm not sure John...try it again".....

I am DEFINITELY going to purchase or fabricate one of those bars that connects the motor and the rudder so they swing in unison. -Herv

 

[SeaTR]

I wasn't clear..

Herv-
It's a recent decision to try and replicate the OEM rudder AND rudder post. After getting some quotes on the web for the entire thing ($$$), I'm looking for alternatives ... after all, I already sank enough into the trailer (complete refurb w/e the frame) and work to date on the "to sail" items, let alone what still needs to be done to complete interior wood and fabric work to ready for 'overnighter' status. (this boat sunk at its mooring a number of years back and not much was done to clean her up...hence the name "assembly required"). the rudder and swing keel are my last major "to sail" items in this project. I look forward to what pictures/info you can get on the rudder post.

You tell a very amusing prop 'story', and yes, I CAN visualize that ... I've seen similar events at the launch year after year.
Charlie

 

[rockp2]

Rudder Housing

Charlie,
I have attached pics for the housing. A couple of things that are not identified in the pictures.

1) To lower the rudder and lock it in place it is just one sheave where the rope makes a 90 degree bend (roughly). One thing I haven't figured out is how the kick up function works. If anyone could spell that out I would appreciate it. Once the rope is locked in the cam, I just don't see what allows the rudder to kick up if it hits an obstruction.

2) The aluminum for the housing is 1/8" thick.

I'll get the swing keel for you next weekend. I will be out of town for work for the week.

Also, I saw you mentioned I live in Northern PA in another post. I live in Central PA, but the lake I plan on doing all my testing on is in the northern part. It's called Wallenpaupack. -Herv

 

[SeaTR]

Once again, you come through!

Herv-
Wow again...great shots! ..all the dimensions and angles that I'm looking for.

1) The "kick up" function will only work if you install a releasable clam cleat (one that pivots up under strain allowing the line to be pulled free from the "clam" teeth), or don't cleat the down-haul line in the cam cleat (presently installed) and see if it stays down by friction. This second option is not the best arrangement as the rudder can start to creep back up from full down due to the flow of water past the rudder or start to float up. The "float up" action is per the original design...foam core of the rudder blade makes the rudder lighter (less dense) than the water...hence upward pressure trying to "kick up" the rudder. Therefore, the line attached is only for the "down-haul" function.

2) 1/8" thick aluminum, thanks.

I look forward to any of the keel dimensions you can "swing".
;-} . Have fun on your business trip this week...anywhere warmer than PA?

--Charlie

 

[rockp2]

Quick Question

Hey Charlie,
Have chance to get this really cheap...probably below $50. Wht do you think? I saw some pics that another guy had put a wheel on his 22' and I thought that was neat. The overall circumference (to include spokes) is 17" so it wouldn't take too much room out of my cockpit. What do you think? OK idea? Bad idea?

 

[SeaTR]

You make the call...ask around

Herv--
Good call / bad call? Room is only one concern. As far as aesthetics...It's not your typical boat wheel, and the handles can be a safety hazard (impalement) in rough seas or loss of ballance. re: mechanical connection...I have NO experience with installing one of those babies. Be sure you thoroughly scope out how much room you have to work with under the cockpit sole and transom for any given proposed installation before you "leap". Some of these installations can be VERY expensive... You may lose room for the existing cockpit swing table if a wheel is installed...given the cockpit dimensions. Start your own thread looking for others' experience and input and see what comes of it.
--Charlie

 

[SeaTR]

Herv--
Have you had a chance to get those swing keel measurements and shape yet? I know you've recently been 'out' on a business trip (enjoyable I hope)...

--Charlie

 

[rockp2]

Here you go....

Charlie,
Didn't spend anytime in my "Man-Cave" last weekend. My youngest was back from Iraq.

This was a little tougher than the rudder to provide some measurements to you. No part of the rudder is at a 90 degree angle. I used the angle iron and wooden shelving to create a square box. The 2 blue tape arrows you see on the aft edge are parrallel to each other. The "box" is square.

Let me know if you need anything else. -Herv

 

[SeaTR]

Fantastic !!

Herv--

Thanks Grunches..! This is one of the last items that I need to address before sea trials this spring, and I VERY much appreciate your effort at getting these measurements AND the contour of the keel's leading edge with the contour "thingy" ... are you a woodworker also? (looks like something a woodworker would use on a lathe.) With what you've given me, I don't think that I need anything else. Grazi, danke, merci, gracias, and thanks again.

I've decided to not make my own rudder and blade, given the cost of the 'pieces parts' and the time frame that I have to work with. In other words, I bought the IdaSailor rudder after discussing it on another thread.

My prayers are with you and your youngest for not only safe return(s) from Irag, but for good "recovery/adjustment" as well, if needed. I'm a "cold war" veteran from a 'few' ;-) decades back...submarine service.

--Charlie

 

[rockp2]

Whoops

Hey Charlie,
Just re-read my post and realized I made an error in my statement. The 2 blue arrows are not parallel, rather the 2 edges they are pointing to are parallel.

Yes, I've spent time as a woodworker also. I'm kind of a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none

Thanks for the wishes for my boy. He completed this tour so now everyone in my family has been. I was there during Desert Shield/Storm and so was my wife, my oldest was there last year, and now my youngest is back. Now I'll I need to do is send my dogs and I will have covered all bases

 

[SeaTR]

Jack? ,,, I hear ya

Herv--

Thanks for the clarification on the blue arrows.
Wow, "all in the family" ...Army? I come from a Navy family. Three brothers and my father all spent time in the Navy.

"Jack of all trades, master of none" is all part of the fun. So many of these projects are learn as you go...This boat is teaching me a lot. Who knows what I'll be learning next!

--Charlie

 

[CKDK]

Re: Jack? ,,, I hear ya

Hey guys:
Getting ready to tackle removing and checking the bushing and shaft on my swing keel.
Boat is an 82 and I don't know if it has ever been done. Seems to be getting a little sloppy so I want to check it out before splash this spring.
Any help / advice you could give from your experience would be helpfull.
Thanks,
Craig

 

[SeaTR]

Yep, just did that last summer...

Craig--
Sure it's been done on any boat your age at least 2-3 times, hopefully. Otherwise, you risk wear to the swing keel housing (and leaks) or worse yet, drop (lose) your keel. See the attached file and pictures for some info... OR ... search this forum using keywords "bearing" "swing keel" or "pivot"...those will probably get you a few hits for ideas and previous discussions.
--Charlie