Music in my boat

Oct 24, 2010
2,405
Hunter 30 Everett, WA
An earlier post about which stereo to buy got me thinking. the thread went off topic so I'll begin a new one here.

The question: Why would anyone want 110db of audio from a stereo. The only thing I can think of is they would need to be nearly deaf. For me 80db is usually too loud.

Adding to that discussion true RMS power (Root Mean Squared) is the only meaningful measure of power. Peak power is in my opinion not of value. It simply shows how big the capacitors are in the power feed of the final amp. I always want sound that replicates the original sound (low distortion and high dynamic range.)

The last part: If we have been listening to loud music, I doubt we can tell good sound from bad because we can't hear due to damaged hearing. That's why I've always opted for good hearing protection.

I certainly don't know it all so please don't take my questions the wrong way. I guess I should add some of my background Worked in the electronics industry (mostly Avionics) from 1974 to 2011 where I retired at 56. Some design, some acoustics. Some lab work, mostly field. Some professional equipment audio experience.
Ken
 
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Oct 3, 2011
827
Anam Cara Catalina 310 Hull #155 155 Lake Erie/Catawba Island
So You too can act like a Power Boater??????
And not hear anything else around you.
 
Nov 9, 2012
2,500
Oday 192 Lake Nockamixon
Sometimes you need to have a dance party in your boat. I go Bluetooth from my phone, because there's nothing I need to hear on broadcast radio. I started with an Eton Rugged Rukus http://www.etoncorp.com/en/productdisplay/rugged-rukus which seemed good because it was solar charging, and splash resistant. I discovered it is hardly splash resistant at all (one dive overboard had splash droplets under the cover of the solar panel. Guess I need to work on my entry form...) and at dance party volumes, it distorts. Even distorts sometimes trying to hear the music over the wind while sailing.

Then I moved on to the TDK Trek Max, because my friend has one, and it has superior sound. I traded solar charging for sound. http://www.amazon.com/TDK-Life-Record-Wireless-Weatherproof/dp/B00JST4VHW

Party lights along the boom:

IMG_2960.jpg


Yes, my friend Tracy and I are silly. Very silly. But hey, it was a dance party on a chilly evening. Bourbon. That's all I'm sayin':

IMG_2958.jpg
 
Dec 11, 2008
1,338
catalina C27 stillwater
"Why would anyone want 110db of audio from a stereo?"
Dancing in the cockpit comes to mind. :)
As a serious answer, it is not that someone with a lot of power available ( I am a classic example) is constantly playing it that loud. Having extra power available ensures that the AC electrical waveform being amplified is not clipped off with the brief high-dynamic range transients.

The electrical signal coming out of an audio amp is an AC signal. It varies with frequency, since it is after all music, with low notes, and high notes. It ALSO varies with amplitude. When viewed on an o-scope the max amplitude capable from any amplifier can be seen, and described at some max VOLTAGE. IF you draw two lines across an o-scope representing max positive voltage, (amplitude) and max negative voltage, (amplitude) you can visually see based on these two voltage extremes that the waveform cannot go past these two max voltage values.

Now say for example you are listening to a classical recording that has some wide dynamic range. You are listening to it through a 5 or 10-watt amplifier connected to a speaker system where the amp and speakers combined are good for up to 80 dB output. There is a long passage of soft to medium loud music, followed immediately by a large crescendo that ends in a thunderous cymbal crash. All of this program material has to be replicated faithfully at the loudspeakers. So say you are rolling along listening to the long soft passage at, oh, lets say 60 to 70 dB, levels ranging from conversation to typical TV sound, The crescendo and crash coming up are maybe recorded to be reproduced at 90 to 100dB at the level you have your stereo set to. You don't have the sufficient voltage, (amplitude) capability available, the crescendo and crash will quickly distort into heavily distorted output at the speakers; there is not enough "rail" voltage available to faithfully reproduce the peak waveforms. To be able to reproduce the very brief loud section of the program, you have to turn your system DOWN for the quiet section, so much so that you probably cannot hear it well... If you had a higher-power amplifier capable of being louder it would faithfully reproduce the crescendo and cymbal transient without clipping. Just because a stereo can get loud doesn't mean it has to. Only YOU can adjust the volume knob... :) (In my best Smokey the Bear impersonation)

"Adding to that discussion true RMS power (Root Mean Squared) is the only meaningful measure of power. Peak power is in my opinion not of value. It simply shows how big the capacitors are in the power feed of the final amp. I always want sound that replicates the original sound (low distortion and high dynamic range.)"

Peak power has nothing to do with the size of the capacitors. It has everything to do with what the marketing department thinks it should advertise to look good. R&D, or engineering have nothing to do with sizing caps to deliver peak power. We engineering types wish "peak power" as a call-out would go away. To get low distortion and high dynamic range, you HAVE to have a big amp. By its very definition, high dynamic range requires you have more amp power than you normally use; for the scenario I specifically describe above.

My background? I am currently wear two hats. I am the Marine Product Line Manager AND the OEM marine sales manager for a well-known mobile audio company. I help design and then sell stereo gear to boat builders... :D

I am a mechanical designer by degree, and have worked in the audio industry since before college. I worked for a loudspeaker enclosure manufacture and designed speaker enclosures for several name brands including Alpine, Rockford Fosgate, Q-Logic, Polk, MB Quart. At one time the car audio subwoofer section in the Crutchfield catalog had a cover page where 5 of the 7 products shown were of my design, all from different audio brands.

I did live sound engineering for many years, although not touring. I have worked with Herman's Hermits, Gary Puckett, Garth Brooks, (way back when; hooked his guitar into a phono input in a club and put the DJ's mic in front of him). Also the All American Rejects, Branford Marsalis, Watermelon Slim, Bobby Rush... Most of this as a result of running festival audio in north and central Oklahoma.

I did my first car stereo install for a neighbor when I was 12.... I guess you can say I screwed up at an early age and ruined a hobby making it a profession....
 
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kito

.
Sep 13, 2012
2,011
1979 Hunter Cherubini 30 Clemmons
An earlier post about which stereo to buy got me thinking. the thread went off topic so I'll begin a new one here.

The question: Why would anyone want 110db of audio from a stereo. The only thing I can think of is they would need to be nearly deaf. For me 80db is usually too loud.

Adding to that discussion true RMS power (Root Mean Squared) is the only meaningful measure of power. Peak power is in my opinion not of value. It simply shows how big the capacitors are in the power feed of the final amp. I always want sound that replicates the original sound (low distortion and high dynamic range.)

The last part: If we have been listening to loud music, I doubt we can tell good sound from bad because we can't hear due to damaged hearing. That's why I've always opted for good hearing protection.

I certainly don't know it all so please don't take my questions the wrong way. I guess I should add some of my background Worked in the electronics industry (mostly Avionics) from 1974 to 2011 where I retired at 56. Some design, some acoustics. Some lab work, mostly field. Some professional equipment audio experience.
Ken
The problem is finding quality recordings to justify having quality equipment. Even CD's are over compressed and lack dynamic range now days. Forget about mp3 not unless it is lossless. I downloaded some lossless music that sounds pretty good. Usually Jazz. I built a pair of Mini Statement monitors a while back. They sound awesome or terrible. Just depends on the recording. They make bad recordings sound worse and good recordings sound fantastic. I am not sure if I like these speakers or not. 3/4 of my cd collection is unlistenable now :(
 

Nick

.
Dec 8, 2015
33
x 1 x
Phil... This is why tube amps with ~18-25 watts of power deliver better output to the speakers than solid state amps that have to deliver 100-200 watts or more to drive the same speakers? My tube amps do much better than the solid state amps I've had before... wish I could use a smaller version of the tube amp on the boat but who listens to over 100db of music in a boat? Cars... yes since they are enclosed (except for the boomers out there) but on a boat it would be horrendous to the neighbors... maybe?
 
Dec 11, 2008
1,338
catalina C27 stillwater
Watts are Watts Nick. The max amplitude of a tube amp rated at power X has the same voltage as a solid state power amp of identical measured power. Ohm's law does not have an asterisk next to it noting an exception for tube amps... :)

THE DIFFERENCE: DISTORTION
Tube amplifiers have a very different distortion curve when compared with Solid State amps. That is a fact, yet due to the way that the CEA allows manufacturers to publish specs, Solid State amps can publish EXTREMELY low distortion specs; WAY LOWER than Tube.....

Understand the lowest distortion operation of a solid state amplifier is just under full power. That is not where most of us, (me included) listen to music. If you were to set your 50 watt per channel SOLID STATE sound system to a normal (adult, no bourbon) listening level and measured the AC voltage going to the speakers, the math would tell you that you are only using 4 to 7 Watts. Take a look at these two comparison curves, which represent typical distortion curves, shown from zero power to rated power:

tube vs ss.png

I picked 10% arbitrarily, but I don't think I am too far off. So say with the Solid State amp, you are listening somewhere in the left-most 10% of the graph above. What is the distortion? Lots.

Go look at the left curve, for the Tube Amp. Notice the curve in the left-most 10% of the chart is basically zero, or close to it. At normal listening levels a tube amp will deliver much lower distortion when compared with solid state.

The other thing is this. Sold State amps, when taken beyond full power have odd-order harmonics as a component of the distortion. That is like hitting the white E key on a piano and then hitting the white F key right next to it. YUK! A tube amp has even-order harmonics as a function of their distortion. That is like hitting the White C key on a piano and then hitting the E key. You can consider that the distortion from a tube amp is harmonious with the original program material, and therefore the distortion that happens above rated power is less noticeable.

I am a tube nut. I don't own any currently, but I was a big Dynaco owner a few years ago. I get the tube story.... Tubes area cool!

Let's not forget the real cognitive bias that comes with owning tube equipment. Tubes ARE cool and we EXPECT them to sound better, so our bias towards that makes them sound better even before turning them on. Add to it the glow, the mystique, the routine of setting the bias voltage... There is an "experience" you go through with tube gear, and it is part of the satisfaction....
 
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Nov 9, 2012
2,500
Oday 192 Lake Nockamixon
I suppose if one cranked up some god awful music while at anchor, it would keep others from anchoring too close.
The night we had our dance party, we were supposed to have the club's first full moon raft-up of the season. I think it was late April. Anyway, it was quite a bit cooler than expected, as you can tell from hats and fleece and pants. So it was only the two of us out there in the cove, no one else showed up!
 
Oct 24, 2010
2,405
Hunter 30 Everett, WA
The other thing that comes to mind for me is with a vacuum tube amp the plate voltage is way higher than the supply for a solid state amp. Clearly the tube current is lower to make equal sound output. I was thinking the distortion curves also are related to this basic difference. Still distortion is the measure of most value to me. I know the sales people also use specs that make public values of little value (pity.) I also like the more difficult measure called intelligibility but this is more used for public PA systems as a whole than sales specs. From what I've seen it does require human listeners.

I know the sound of tube amps can be better and solid state requires plenty of feedback compensation to create an acceptable sound, but I feel the limits of the media used also limit the need for better amps once you reach a certain point.

The one that gets me most often is when I hear someone with the level up so high the distortion makes it really hard to listen to. I can't figure out for the life of me why people don't at least turn it down until the major part of the distortion goes away.

I guess I'm getting old. High outputs don't do it for me. When I have to attend outside concerts I usually stay way back or attenuate the sound with hearing protection. What my ears hear with hearing protection has to be lower quality as well due to non-linear sound transmission.

Clearly my opinions don't match the market because if they did, there would be way different sales techniques.
Ken
 
May 24, 2004
7,131
CC 30 South Florida
I grew up driving a car with no air conditioner and a single band AM radio. It had static and road noise would drown out some of the frequencies but I did listen to the music. It is almost the same experience as trying to reproduce sounds via speakers in the open cockpit of a boat underway but if the music is good the sounds do not need to be loud nor perfect. It is all about enjoying the music.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
I drew the curves, from memory, representative of easy found published performance curves.

Here is a tube amp THD+noise va power curve from this tube amp test:
http://www.stereophile.com/content/...er-amplifier-measurements#e8ECFOMcDjTKxx4x.97
View attachment 120001

Here is a similar curve, same source, yet for a solid state amp tested here: http://www.stereophile.com/content/...er-amplifier-measurements#F1YP8oyIPz4PTFDL.97

View attachment 120002
That looks more like real-world applications.
 
Dec 28, 2010
462
Catalina 380 san pedro
Phil - Thank you for the lesson. I understand about 75% of what you are talking about but in reality I have no place for a tube amp on my boat. ( the mere thought makes me laugh and I have you to thank for it ). To me the important thing is to minimize distortion and I am definitely looking for a sub woofer for the new boat (catalina 380). In my humble opinion, Tube amps give me a warm fuzzy feeling for all the reasons you so technically explained. *wink
 
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Dec 11, 2008
1,338
catalina C27 stillwater
That looks more like real-world applications.
Yeah, without citing specific brands an models for a direct comparison, the two curves I drew spoke in very general terms. You have to agree though that the comparison based on shape of curves is generally representative...
 
Dec 11, 2008
1,338
catalina C27 stillwater
Phil - Thank you for the lesson. I understand about 75% of what you are talking about but in reality I have no place for a tube amp on my boat. ( the mere thought makes me laugh and I have you to thank for it ). To me the important thing is to minimize distortion and I am definitely looking for a sub woofer for the new boat (catalina 380). In my humble opinion, Tube amps give me a warm fuzzy feeling for all the reasons you so technically explained. *wink
A subwoofer is a nice addition. It does not need to be huge either. I have a simple 8" woofer in a sealed enclosure mounted in one of my dinette settees. No booming, just that nice warm low-end.

Let us know what you find.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Yeah, without citing specific brands an models for a direct comparison, the two curves I drew spoke in very general terms. You have to agree though that the comparison based on shape of curves is generally representative...
I'm not sure I do. What you drew is simply not true for consumers and therefore misleading. I'd be interested in seeing a consumer HiFi stereo amp that has a THD/power relationship like the one you drew. My experience says they look like the actual plot you posted later, or like the one below. Basically flat until you hit rated power, then through the roof.

 
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