mac 22 keel won't go all the way down

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pulsewave

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Apr 12, 2016
42
Macgregor Venture 222 Waconia
Hi all,
I have a Macgregor 22 and I can winch the keel down about 33 turns (with the lock bolt in). When I take the lock bolt out and crank it down more, and it goes a little further - and I see the keel edge swinging by (when looking into the trunk lock bolt hole). Then the crank cable just goes loose, as if the keel is somehow wedged in the trunk. The lock bolt hole on the keel never reaches the spot where it would be visible through the trunk lock bolt hole. The attached pics show that underneath the keel slot looks normal. Any thoughts?
-Jed
 

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centerline

centerline

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Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
it sounds like you can get the lock bolt in... thats all the lower the keel needs to go.
after the lock bolt hole is lined up so that the pin can go in, WITH OUT the pin in, the keel will only drop a couple cranks past that point, then it rests against the keel trunk.... this "couple of cranks" could be a bit more or less depending on the exact location of where the pivot hole in the trunk has been drilled.
 
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pulsewave

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Apr 12, 2016
42
Macgregor Venture 222 Waconia
I can't quite get the lock bolt in. I just only see the edge of the keel pass by (looking into the trunk lock pin hole as it's cranked down) and then the keel stops before I see the keel's lock pin hole. Unfortunately I don't think I have the time/tools/resources to drop the keel out and look for obstructions. At this point I'd be more willing to perhaps drill a hole in the keel (when it's down as far as it can go) in order to put a lock pin in. Not sure what would happen if the boar turtles (would the lock pin hold the keel when it's not all the way extended?). Anyone try to drill through the keel? Is it hollow, or is there any other problems in trying to do this?
 
Tsatzsue

Tsatzsue

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May 16, 2011
555
Macgregor V-25 Charlton, MA- Trailer
You should drop the nose of the keel before drilling through 2" of cast iron. Your keel looks to be cast. Much easier to drop the keel. Look for links to " keel inspection". Just lower the front of the trailer as far as your crank jack will go. Then block up the boat from underneath. Crank up the front jack and the rear of the boat should be high enough o allow you to lower the keel. The hole is there it must be plugged with crap. You really should inspect the front pivot bolt annually anyway, This will be a good chance to inspect the cable attachment point as well.
Ken B
CMDRE - NETS
 
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centerline

centerline

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Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
pulsewave said:
I can't quite get the lock bolt in. I just only see the edge of the keel pass by (looking into the trunk lock pin hole as it's cranked down) and then the keel stops before I see the keel's lock pin hole. Unfortunately I don't think I have the time/tools/resources to drop the keel out and look for obstructions. At this point I'd be more willing to perhaps drill a hole in the keel (when it's down as far as it can go) in order to put a lock pin in. Not sure what would happen if the boar turtles (would the lock pin hold the keel when it's not all the way extended?). Anyone try to drill through the keel? Is it hollow, or is there any other problems in trying to do this?
Click to expand
are you doing this alone, or do you have someone cranking the winch while you look in the hole?
my first experience with the keel lock pin sounds very similar to what you are describing.

make sure you arent passing the lock down hole with the keel.... the only sure way to do this is to be looking in the hole while the keel is moving up or down, as the hole passes rather quickly.
once you know with absolute certainty the hole is not being passed, yet still does not line up, there is only 2 things to do at that point....
first, pull the boat out of the water and look to see if a chunk of wood or debris is caught up in the trunk.... if nothing is found there and the keel lock pin hole still does not line up, then move on to step 2.... its time to drop the keel and repair the pivot hole, as if the pivot hole wears past its tolerance, the lock pin hole wont line up....
 
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pulsewave

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Apr 12, 2016
42
Macgregor Venture 222 Waconia
Yeah, I was looking as the keel was winched down. Looking in the lock pin hole, I only saw the very edge of the keel swing by before it stops. When it's on the trailer I can't really see up past the keel in the trunk area where it must be pitching or obstructed.
The manual's diagram (http://www.macgregorsailors.com/manuals/Mac21_22_25_Manual.pdf) shows the lock hole very close to the edge of the keel. Is that an accurate drawing?
 
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pulsewave

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Apr 12, 2016
42
Macgregor Venture 222 Waconia
Huh! That's really close to the edge. I wonder why I'm not see the keel lock hole? One other thing that I noticed is that there looks to be some newer fiberglass work. I see it when I look down into the little hatch/hole that's in the front bed area. I look back inside towards the trunk area from that hole, and see what looks like a reinforced trunk area. I wonder if the keel swung forward and cracked something, and thus is creating a pinch point? There's no evidence of damage from the bottom (as seen in the pics).
 
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pulsewave

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Apr 12, 2016
42
Macgregor Venture 222 Waconia
... (if there is a structural pinched area)
If the lock pin is that close to being lined up (and the pivot bolt area seems ok) I wonder it I should try to estimate where the keel lock pin hole is and drill a new hole in the trunk that lines up with it - and just lock the keel down in that lowest possible position.
 
centerline

centerline

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Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
pulsewave said:
... (if there is a structural pinched area)
If the lock pin is that close to being lined up (and the pivot bolt area seems ok) I wonder it I should try to estimate where the keel lock pin hole is and drill a new hole in the trunk that lines up with it - and just lock the keel down in that lowest possible position.
Click to expand
the new glass work tells us that the keel was grounded and the pin ripped the trunk when the keel tried to fold up... the repair must have been made before diagramming where the hole needed to be, and so someone guessed (seemingly wrong) at where it needed to be when the keel was down.... so the new hole probably IS in the wrong spot....
the keel should be cranked up about 3 turns from resting on the trunk, and then the keel bolt hole should line up... so when estimating, make certain the keel is in the proper spot or else it will drastically affect the trim and balance of the boat and its rigging, which equates to sailing ability..

it might be possible to use a magnetic stud finder to locate the hole. its a long shot, but for the cost of a cheap $3 plastic mechanical unit, its worth a try....

you may have to use a 1/8th inch bit and poke around til you locate the keel hole... the small holes will be easy to patch with epoxy putty.

on thing that will definitely help, is if someone else who owns one of those boats could tell you the distance from the pivot pin to the lock bolt hole.... this would give you the distance/radius you need from the pivot, but you still will need to locate exactly where along the radius line the keel hole is when the keel in in position..
 
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pulsewave

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Apr 12, 2016
42
Macgregor Venture 222 Waconia
Good ideas on locating the lock bolt position, thanks.
Additional info: The pivot and lock bolt areas all look original (undamaged) from the port side. See pictures. When looking inside (starboard side of trunk) from the acess hole/hatch just behind the bulkhead, it looks (maybe...) patched (see picture with pivot bolt in foreground and lock bolt in background). That picture is looking forward.
Either way, I'm concerned that the keel won't be down as far as it normally would if
I install a new lock bolt hole (because keel won't go all the way down...)
Is there much of a problem if the keel is swept back more than normal (balance problems, or more critically won't upright itself if turtled?) it simply gets wedged and won't get close to resting in the trunk (bumper) to measure the three cranks down you recommended.
 

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centerline

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Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
from the pics, it all looks original...
if the keel isnt all the way down, it keeps the hydrofoil (keel) farther aft in the hull than the rigging/sail plan was designed for... it will be out of balance for optimal performance.
for the little bit that it is up, it will have some effect but not enough to allow the boat to turtle IF it were locked in position. WITHOUT the lock pin in, during a severe knockdown the keel can swing into the trunk, in which case there is no longer the righting force needed to bring the boat back.

a lot of people on here say they never lock their keel down and have never had a problem.... but like all things in life that we may take a chance on, it is never a problem until there IS a problem.... I pushed my 21 close to its limits it wind, waves and silly things I did in the name of "testing" the boat and the theory of sailing when I was learning to sail it (I had the mast in the water twice).... but I never sailed without the keel locked down, and always felt safe and always brought the boat home undamaged.
thru it all, Ive learned what to do and what not to do, but even so, the keel gets locked on my boats because I know how fast things can go wrong....
 
jjsbiggs

jjsbiggs

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Jun 24, 2010
189
Macgregor 25 Northeast, MD
I would highly recommend that you at the very least drop the front of the keel and inspect the keel pivot bolt and lock bolt area to determine what the problem is and correcting it so you can lock the keel in the correct position. If you do a search on this site there are many posts on the best way to get the boat off the trailer. The keel is very heavy at 625# so you have to be careful to support it while removing.
 
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pulsewave

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Apr 12, 2016
42
Macgregor Venture 222 Waconia
I wonder if I'll be able to see the possible obstruction by lifting the boat up and letting the keel down a little bit. I'm hesitant to try and remove the keel at this point due to the complexity of the job.
 
Tsatzsue

Tsatzsue

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May 16, 2011
555
Macgregor V-25 Charlton, MA- Trailer
I made a gantry to pull the trailer out for refinishing. Pulled the keel completely out for the second time. One man job and fun. Just go slow. Here are some pics.
Ken B.
CMDRE - NETS
 

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pulsewave

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Apr 12, 2016
42
Macgregor Venture 222 Waconia
Great pics thanks. I didnt know of such an easy way to pull the trailer out. Feel free to pass along any tips about how to jack up the keel cradle (to get the weight off of the pivot bolt - for removal), and how to lift the keel back up and align it properly to reinsert the pivot bolt (seems like it'd be difficult making the minute adjustments for re-allignment).
 
Freedom77

Freedom77

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Jul 29, 2010
1,392
Macgregor 76 V-25 #928 Lake Mead, Nevada
When I removed keel I just used a bottle jack to lift keel enough to take weight off bolt and then just lowered onto cradle. Same thing for reinstall. I built a low flat platform with side supports and heavy casters. Easy Peasy Lemon Squeezy. K>I>S>S>
 
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