It's Time to Replace the Lines

Mar 28, 2015
184
Macgregor 25 Cherry Creek
Hi
It's been a while since I've posted but not much going on here in Colorado over the winter. Anyway, we are getting ready for our second season with our Mac 25 and this year we are replacing all the lines (sorry if I am not using the correct nautical term for rope, but I'm confident someone will educate me). I think I have this right, I want to replace the lines for the Jib Halyard, a Main Sheet and a Jib Sheet. The Jib Halyard is really in bad shape and I'm surprised it made it through last season. As I was taking it out of the rigging the cover/jacket of the rope separated and it was a real mess. Anyway, my question is, what is the best rope/line to buy? I've been looking and I'm real confused. I see single braid, double braid, french braid (sorry could not resist the joke), etc. Then there is the question about strength. If there is a good web link that explains all of this, I would be happy to be told where to go. I know you can get rope at places like the home depot but I don't mind paying a bit more if it is worth it. So, there you have it. I eagerly await my education.
 
Oct 22, 2014
20,989
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
Hi Greengas
First I assume your running rigging (the lines you control the sails with - sheets and halyards) are all rope. (Some boats have halyards made of spliced wire and rope.)

So. You want to first identify the diameter of your lines. You will buy lines that have the same diameter. This is so the lines will be proper size for the sheaves and blocks. Next Length. If you are happy with the current lines get the same lengths. Jib length needs to go from bow to mast sheave/ or jib block and down to where it is secured on mast or back to cockpit with a bit extra as tail.

To make the job halyard exchange tie on a small cord (this is a messenger line.) to the end of the old halyard. Tape to assure messanger stays attached and will go through the sheaves at the top of mast. (Big knots are to be avoided as they can get stuck at the top of the mast.) Tie other end of messenger line to your new halyard. Smoothly pull old line down letting new halyard ride up and back down the mast.

Halyards need to be low or no stretch. Nylon while cheap stretches. Not good for the jib halyard to raise the sail only to stretch and let sail fall when the wind puts pressure on the sail. We use double braid polyester. Sometimes referred to as yacht braid. Can be found at marina stores, climbing stores, and rigging stores. I have a logger tree climber store near by that sells New England Rope. 20% savings over same rope from a marina store.

Sheets are the same idea. But no messenger line is needed since lines are at deck level. Match old line diameters amd lengths.

Personal preferences are many. I like Samson WarpSpeed for halyards. Light weight, strong, low to no stretch.

Sheets are double braid polyester line that feels good in the hand.

Good luck. Oh and get colors so you can tell the crew "grab the red line". Might mean the difference between grabbing the jib halyard and not the main halyard For a new crew.
 
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Apr 19, 2012
1,043
O'Day Daysailor 17 Nevis MN
I agree with everything that JSSailem said. I would emphasize that color coding your lines makes a big difference. Not just for the crew but the captain as well. I get most of my lines from eBay. Most, if not all, of the lines on a Mac-25 will be 5/16 diameter. Double braid polyester, although not the "best", is the best value. It is good, strong, low-stretch, rope that will last for years if properly cared for.

Also the messanger line is good advise for large boats but for a trailerable boat it's easiest to replace the lines with the mast down.
 
Jan 28, 2012
10
Macgregor 26D Saint Cloud, Fl
I replaced all my running rigging last year. I bought a complete set from these folks:
http://www.cajunrope.com/macgregor.html
If nothing else their site has some info you might find useful.
I don't know how price compares to others, but I am very satisfied with all the lines. It was nice to get everything in one set, ready to go with connectors already spliced in. Far superior to the lines already on my 26 when I bought it.
The complete set is designed to have enough line for running the halyards aft from the mast to the cockpit. After I got this set, I installed the lines aft hardware (pulleys, turning block, and cam cleats) and that's been a great improvement.
 
Jul 7, 2004
8,402
Hunter 30T Cheney, KS
Also the messanger line is good advise for large boats but for a trailerable boat it's easiest to replace the lines with the mast down.
I miss those mast down options with my old Mac. The Hunter has internal lines. I butted my new and old lines and stitched them together to pull them through. Worked great.
 
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jwing

.
Jun 5, 2014
503
ODay Mariner Guntersville
First, rope is rope until it is cut and placed for a specific purpose on a boat. Then it is line. If the rope is just a coil of rope stored on the boat for some unforeseen purpose, it is still rope.

Don't duplicate rope diameters without a bit a thought. Whoever placed the lines that are there now may have made a mistake. The previous owner of my boat had problems with his hands, so he replaced some lines with larger diameter rope. This led to some problems with the rope fitting in blocks and cam cleats. I replaced them with smaller rope and sailing became easier. It is possible to go too small, so think it through.

Low stretch rope for halyards is a good idea and for halyards, the hand-feel doesn't much matter. I sail a small boat, so I like to sail with at least one sheet or traveler control line in my hands. Therefore, I prefer sheets that are easier on my hands. To me, low-stretch is not important for sheets, but easy-to-grip is.

Read the websites of the rope manufacturers and talk to the people from whom you will be buying the rope. You will learn a lot. From there, you just have to take a stab and learn from experience.
 
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Jun 3, 2004
1,863
Macgregor 25 So. Cal.
Look at the bottom of the page--It will give you the length of each line and size.
 
Mar 28, 2015
184
Macgregor 25 Cherry Creek
Thanks to everyone for all their guidance, I've learned a lot and still have a long way to go. The lines on the boat currently are all 3/8th. I see from the recommended web site that 5/16 is better for most of the lines with one still being 3/8. I am going to color code the lines. I've already decided on one color, black for docking lines to include fender whips. Wow, one decision down. :) Next question, I see there are two options, tying off the lines at the mast or in the cockpit. Right now, the lines tie off at the mast except for the jib line. What are the advantages and disadvantages of each option? I know tying off in the cockpit requires more line but I'm ok with that if it is a better option. Again, the boat is used in the lakes in Colorado so no big water, although storms do tend to pop up quickly and can be very strong when they do happen.

Thanks in advance again for the on-going education.

Mahalo

Ronn
 
Jul 7, 2004
8,402
Hunter 30T Cheney, KS
If going forward to handle lines is comfortable for you. stick with it. To lead them aft properly costs $$$. You'll need a mast plate, blocks, deck organizers, and cleats or clutches. For those pop up storms, maybe focus on things that will get you depowered quickly e.g. jiffy reefing, lazy jacks, furling etc.
 
Apr 19, 2012
1,043
O'Day Daysailor 17 Nevis MN
Very good question Greengas. There are advantages and disadvantages for both systems and a lot depends on personal preference. Here's what I came up with off the top of my head.

Advantages for leaving lines at mast:
1. Shorter lines, less cost, less to trip on
2. Lines out of the way, frees up cockpit space
3. No additional hardware to install

Disadvantages of leaving lines at mast:
1. Have to leave cockpit for access

Advantages to running lines to cockpit:
1. Quicker ad easier access, especially for singlehanded sailing
2. Never, or rarely, have to leave the safety of the cockpit
3. A skilled sailor can handle the lines while controlling the rudder at the same time

Disadvantages for running lines to cockpit:
1. Additional hardware and planning required
2. Longer set-up time
3. Added line friction
 
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Mar 28, 2015
184
Macgregor 25 Cherry Creek
If going forward to handle lines is comfortable for you. stick with it. To lead them aft properly costs $$$. You'll need a mast plate, blocks, deck organizers, and cleats or clutches. For those pop up storms, maybe focus on things that will get you depowered quickly e.g. jiffy reefing, lazy jacks, furling etc.
Thanks for the suggestions. I was able to follow everything you said until you started talking about what to do in storms. Please define jiffy reefing, lazy jacks, and furling (I know what a furling jib is so maybe I do understand that one).

Thanks in advance.
 

jwing

.
Jun 5, 2014
503
ODay Mariner Guntersville
My perspective as a sailor of a 19' O'day Mariner:

I cleat my main halyard at the mast. That's where I want to be when I raise the sail, lower the sail, and when I put a reef in. So, there is no reason to bring the main halyard back.

My foresail is hanked on. I cleat its halyard at the mast, too, just because I prefer to keep that line out of the cockpit. I already have enough going on in the cockpit and more lines decreases the comfort and therefore decreases the fun. I have a jib downhaul line that I also cleat off near the mast because I need to release the halyard before I pull on the downhaul, so it makes sense to have them near each other. So that would be two extra lines cluttering up the cockpit.

Jib sheets are held fast with cam cleats mounted as far aft on the cabin deck as possible. The camcleats are angled to lead the sheets toward the tiller on the opposite side of the boat. This is because the tillerperson usually sits windward and the working jib sheet is leeward. My jibsheets are long enough for the tillerperson to hold while steering the boat. Unlike the halyards, these lines get used a lot, so they should be convenient.

IMO, if your boat has a traveler, the control lines should be long enough to adjust from the tiller, too. The traveler control is not as critical as the jib sheets, but if it is not convenient, it can easily become a "set it and forget it" feature. That's fine if that's how you want to be, but a good traveler is very useful, and fun.
 
Jul 7, 2004
8,402
Hunter 30T Cheney, KS
Thanks for the suggestions. I was able to follow everything you said until you started talking about what to do in storms. Please define jiffy reefing, lazy jacks, and furling (I know what a furling jib is so maybe I do understand that one).

Thanks in advance.
I would Google them for pics and descriptions. Jiffy reefing comes down to lines fed through your reef point(s) to help get the sail reduced easier. I've tried a single fore and aft system on my Mac but there was just too much friction. Separate lines work better, or maybe just one at the leech and using the horn at the luff. . Lazy jacks 'contain' the sail when you lower it. Rather than the sail spilling over the deck, it is contained above the boom when it comes down. You still need a topping lift. You get furling already. My wife insisted on having it. I have to admit, it makes reducing or 'dropping' the headsail much easier and safer. The furling line leads back to the cockpit.
 
Apr 19, 2012
1,043
O'Day Daysailor 17 Nevis MN
Thanks for the suggestions. I was able to follow everything you said until you started talking about what to do in storms. Please define jiffy reefing, lazy jacks, and furling (I know what a furling jib is so maybe I do understand that one).

Thanks in advance.
You're right that the furling refers to a furling jib.

For "Jiffy Reefing" see here:
http://www.sailboat-cruising.com/jiffy-reefing.html

For "Lazy Jacks" see here:
http://www.bartonmarine.com/tech-in...ack-kit-for-yachts-up-to-9m-part-no-41150.asp

With boats the size of ours lazy jacks may or may not be useful. I haven't installed any on my boat yet though I have considered it.
 
Jul 7, 2004
8,402
Hunter 30T Cheney, KS
The one glitch with permanent lazyjacks is that the sail cover has to be modified. I had a SailCare SailCradle on my Mac so I would not have to touch my cover, but I ended up modifying it so it could be left deployed while sailing. As designed, it is meant to be taken back to the mast when not in use. You'll see what I mean here:
http://www.sailcare.com/sailcradle.shtml
 
Mar 28, 2015
184
Macgregor 25 Cherry Creek
My perspective as a sailor of a 19' O'day Mariner:

I cleat my main halyard at the mast. That's where I want to be when I raise the sail, lower the sail, and when I put a reef in. So, there is no reason to bring the main halyard back.

My foresail is hanked on. I cleat its halyard at the mast, too, just because I prefer to keep that line out of the cockpit. I already have enough going on in the cockpit and more lines decreases the comfort and therefore decreases the fun. I have a jib downhaul line that I also cleat off near the mast because I need to release the halyard before I pull on the downhaul, so it makes sense to have them near each other. So that would be two extra lines cluttering up the cockpit.

Jib sheets are held fast with cam cleats mounted as far aft on the cabin deck as possible. The camcleats are angled to lead the sheets toward the tiller on the opposite side of the boat. This is because the tillerperson usually sits windward and the working jib sheet is leeward. My jibsheets are long enough for the tillerperson to hold while steering the boat. Unlike the halyards, these lines get used a lot, so they should be convenient.

IMO, if your boat has a traveler, the control lines should be long enough to adjust from the tiller, too. The traveler control is not as critical as the jib sheets, but if it is not convenient, it can easily become a "set it and forget it" feature. That's fine if that's how you want to be, but a good traveler is very useful, and fun.
It sounds like your set up is just what I have right now. I do have a traveler, it sits right in front of the access to the galley but the line from it is easily accessible by the person on the tiller as is the jib line. I do want to change the cleats that hold the jib line. Right now it is the type that is long, narrow and the line pops out of at unexpected times. I want to change it to the one that has what looks like two pin ball bumpers on it and some sort of hoop to hold the line steady. My question now is, I can take off the other cleat and then have some cleaning and filling to do before putting on the new cam cleat, or I can use the slider that is on the side and put a cam cleat on that. Not sure if that is far enough back though. Thoughts?
 
Jul 7, 2004
8,402
Hunter 30T Cheney, KS
Ok, what does "hanked on" mean?
Yours probably is and you don't realize it. If you aren't using a furler where the luff has a bolt rope sewn on to slide up a foil, your sail probably has clips or hanks that connect the luff to the headstay.
 

jwing

.
Jun 5, 2014
503
ODay Mariner Guntersville
I do want to change the cleats that hold the jib line.
It helps to use the correct terminology. The reason that sailing has so much seemingly-arcane lingo is to make communication easier and more precise.

In this case, I think you are referring to the jib sheets. A sheet is a line used to control the movable corner of a sail.

Right now it is the type that is long, narrow and the line pops out of at unexpected times.
Do you mean a clamcleat? If so, that is not the right cleat for a jib sheet on a 25' boat. Yes, change them.

I want to change it to the one that has what looks like two pin ball bumpers on it and some sort of hoop to hold the line steady.
That would be a camcleat with fairlead. Good choice. Match your new camcleats to your jib sheet diameter.

My question now is, I can take off the other cleat and then have some cleaning and filling to do before putting on the new cam cleat,
That's probably your best course of action.

or I can use the slider that is on the side and put a cam cleat on that.
Not sure if that is far enough back though. Thoughts?
By 'slider that is on the side' I'm guessing you mean the jib lead track. Yes, it is possible to buy a camcleat that can be mounted to the track. But you need to assure that whatever you buy is compatible with your existing track. And yes, the track may not extend far enough aft to make that option workable.

Rigging your boat the way you like it is part of the fun of sailing. Paying for it is fun only if you have lots more money than I have.
 
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