Inverter Suggestions

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Apr 8, 2010
1,606
Frers 33 41426 Westport, CT
Adding a small inverter to the boat this year, looking to add something about 500w-600w (big enough I can run a small coarded drill or dremel if I need). Due to space and wireing constraints, I need the inverter output to be wired to a seperate 110v duplex plug like you would in the house, and activated via a breaker on the main house panel. I figure that worst case I can wire up a regular plug wired from the duplex outlet and plug into the inverter, but I'd prefer to have a more solid connection.

I'm considering the ProMariner TruePower 600 but not sure if this is the right unit for my needs or not.
 
May 24, 2004
7,131
CC 30 South Florida
A few things, as you may already know any inverter larger than 400W needs to be hardwired to the batteries with proper gauge wire and a 100A to 150A fuse. An On/Off battery switch is recommended. On the 12V side it needs to be as close to the batteries as possible but in a well ventilated and heat free location. The 120V side can be efficiently extended by wiring or a power cord. As far as connecting your 120V wiring to the inverter it depends on the unit but most small ones just bring two or three 15A outlets. In that case using a 15A plug would be the most convenient way, just secure the cable so the plug cannot accidentaly be pulled off. The need of going through the panel or even addying a breaker switch is optional as in case of a short the inverter unit will overload and shut power down. Only if you intend to keep the designated outlets live at all times would I add a breaker switch at the panel. On the choice of inverter I would look for one that would shut the fan down when there is no load to conserve power and reduce noise. For small tools, TV's and other appliances a modified sine wave inverter will do the job and you should be able to get a 600W or 750W for under $100. Installation wires, fuse, switch and outlet should run you another $100. As long as the unit is installed in a dry location it will not likely need to be a marine use product. Don't know what ProMariner, besides the name, has as features for the marine environment but it is in the price range of others and will likely do the job. I do recommend finding a unit where the fan only runs under load.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,674
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
I cringe when I say this, but you might consider the Xantrex ProWattSW inverters. They are sine wave inverters at a very reasonable price. Any inverter over 100 watts or so should be wired to a solid source, if not direct to the batteries. A 400W inverter is absolutely not safe run from a 12V socket intended for 5-10A... A good rough figure is 10A DC per 100W of inverter power. So a 400W inverter can pull 40A of DC current.

I have a MELTED:cussing: 100W 12V socket inverter in my shop right now. Even tiny 100W inverter can melt down a cigarette lighter and the inverter potentially leading to a fire......:eek: It is my personal feeling that 12V socket inverters are like the Corvair, unsafe at ANY speed......;)
 
Apr 8, 2010
1,606
Frers 33 41426 Westport, CT
I am replacing the old 10awg wireing to the main panel before installing the new panel (and adding a 130 ANL fuse near the battery) with new 6awg wire, the run is measured at 16 feet. So if I calculated everything correctly, I have taken the inverter load into consideration when doing so and shuld be good for peak loads on this of at least 60A (what I put in for a main breaker size). I added a 50A breaker on the new panel to power the inverter.

Not counting conversion inefficiencies, a 600W inverter should in theory draw 36A (at peak sustained use), add a 20% overhead and I'm still under the 50A that I have planned for on the breaker and wireing to the panel.

I guess the main question I'm going for is: does anyone see any issue with this option for a inverter given the use I'm suggesting? (and the wireing I've spec'd)

Secondary question would be: does extending the outlets with an extension cord sound bad (seems like a no)

I'll check out the Xantrex, please explain why you cringe at suggesting it first!

Also will look into the fan on the pro mariner (good tip). I don't intend to leave it on if I'm not actively drawing power from it, and where it's going to be placed it won't be heard too much even if it runs, but something to consider nonetheless.
 
Apr 8, 2010
1,606
Frers 33 41426 Westport, CT
hmm, just reread your post MS and saw that your amperage numbers don't match mine... went back to the site I normally use to be lazy and calculate all electricial things for me (http://www.jobsite-generators.com/power_calculators.html) and realized they have a little note saying "A power factor of 0.8 is used in the calculation"

so plugged the numbers into a calculator myself and sure enough 600W at 12v = 50A so at peak loads I may actually be tripping that breaker after all...
 
Sep 28, 2008
922
Canadian Sailcraft CS27 Victoria B.C.
Is your 16' distance one way or there and return? If one way a 16' run with 3% voltage drop requires 4 awg. If the run is actually 32' total there and back for 60 amps@ 3% drop you need to use 2 awg.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,674
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Adding a small inverter to the boat this year, looking to add something about 500w-600w (big enough I can run a small coarded drill or dremel if I need). Due to space and wireing constraints, I need the inverter output to be wired to a seperate 110v duplex plug like you would in the house.
This can be fine so long as that outlet is 100% isolated from the rest of the ships systems.



and activated via a breaker on the main house panel. I figure that worst case I can wire up a regular plug wired from the duplex outlet and plug into the inverter, but I'd prefer to have a more solid connection.
Here's where you get into $$$ and complications. If you attach it to the main AC panel then you need an isolation transfer switch or an auto transfer inverter.. This gets $$$$$ and MUST be done correctly.

I'm considering the ProMariner TruePower 600 but not sure if this is the right unit for my needs or not.
At a minimum for power tools I'd suggest 1000W. You never know what you may need or want to run out there for a short time.

I added a 50A breaker on the new panel to power the inverter.

Inverters are not generally powered from a DC panel breaker. They are powered from the battery bank, with fusing, and turned on and off via a remote panel that is an "option" with many inverters. Cheap ones don't often have this option and you need to use the "on/off" switch on the inverter.


Not counting conversion inefficiencies, a 600W inverter should in theory draw 36A (at peak sustained use),
Unless Mr. Ohm changed his law, Watts / Volts = Amps or 600W / 12V = 50A. Now add inefficiency 50A X 1.2 (80%) = 60A..

add a 20% overhead and I'm still under the 50A that I have planned for on the breaker and wireing to the panel.

As we can see from the math above your inverter can max the entire main breaker and that is at it's face value rating of 600W. Most of these inverters can produce double the rating for short periods of time.



I guess the main question I'm going for is: does anyone see any issue with this option for a inverter given the use I'm suggesting? (and the wireing I've spec'd).
I will, as usual, and as I should, IGNORE the stated use. I have to. Once the inverter is installed it can, may or will be used to do more, almost always is. For what you describe it "could" be ok but the wiring will be undersized and you may find it shutting down on low voltage. This is why inverters are pulled directly from banks so as not to add all the other conenctions and wiring for even more voltage drop. I don't know what your bank is but lets assume you're drawing 60A off the bank and it's voltage falls to 11.7 during the 60A load. We now add a 5% voltage drop, or more depending on whether your numbers are one way or round trip. 5% is roughly 0.6V. So, 11.7V at the battery minus 0.6V in the wire = 11.1V at the inverter. I hear a low voltage alarm going off... somewhere.....;)

Secondary question would be: does extending the outlets with an extension cord sound bad (seems like a no)
There is nothing wrong with this as long as it is done correctly and everything remains 100% isolated from the rest of the ships AC wiring.

I'll check out the Xantrex, please explain why you cringe at suggesting it first!
I cringe because I have dealt with "X" for many years. Just do a google on "X" and customer service... The products can be ok but the company.... well, I'll leave that for others.... We have a ProWatt SW on our own boat, it was inexpensive and I run only power tools with it and charge power tool and computer batteries. This is why I went sine wave not MSW..... It has worked well but I don't expect any sort of "support" from "X" and when it dies it goes in the trash bin and gets replaced as they are pretty much disposable these days...

Talk to any good marine electrical guy and ask about "X" and you'll likely get an ear full. Most of us have found other brands by now. I have pretty much stopped installing their chargers and only do so when there is no other reasonable option.

This does not mean they don't make some good stuff, they do, but they are about the worst in the industry when it comes to support. It's like they just walked out on the street and picked 10 people to plunk in front of the phones and their previous experience was bagging groceries or greeting people at Wal*Mart...:D:D

I have been asking them now for over FOUR YEARS to make some critically necessary changes to an installation manual but they just 100% ignore it...

Rant on "X" over...:doh:
 

Sumner

.
Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
.. (big enough I can run a small corded drill or dremel if I need)....
I might suggest an alternative. Instead of a corded drill go with....



... go with some cordless tools. We carry these on the boat and I also use them at home for all of my projects there. I looked for 12 volt tools thinking I could power them from the ship's batteries with a cord that I would make up, but these run so long on the lithium-ion batteries that isn't necessary. Also the batteries recharge in about 20 minutes. I got 2 drills so have 4 batteries and the saw and a great LED light came with one set. Even with 2 batteries you won't run out due to the fast recharge time.

I didn't think the 12 volt would be powerful enough, but I don't use my 14 and 18 volt cordless at home any more. These have the power and fit into tighter places. They have other accessories.....

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00917586000P?mv=rr&i_cntr=1333030897275

...that work with the same battery pack.

There is so many good 12 volt options out there I just don't see much need to have 110 on a boat and this is a lot cheaper way to go and more effecient with no inverter losses.

We do have a small....



... 180 watt Wagan pure sine wave inverter that we use to recharge the above batteries and other batteries like the camera batteries. It simply plugs into a 12 volt outlet and cost less than $100.

If you are doing larger jobs and need grinders and such you probably have shore power and can just use that,

Sum

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Feb 6, 1998
11,674
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
... 180 watt Wagan pure sine wave inverter that we use to recharge the above batteries and other batteries like the camera batteries. It simply plugs into a 12 volt outlet and cost less than $100.


Sum
Sum,

PLEASE be very careful using the plug in inverters. 180 Watts of inverter can be 18A on a 12V socket, enough to melt a plastic one or seriously over heat the wires to a metal one. 12V Sockets really should not have more than a 10A fuse ESPECIALLY the cheap plastic "marine" type... The highest rating I know of on a 12V socket is 15A most are 10A....

Here's a pic as to why ......


This is a 150W "plug in" inverter. It is about 75% - 80% efficient which means it draws about 15A. This one completely melted and it's own factory installed fuse NEVER blew. The 12V socket finally melted enough to break contact. Lucky enough this was before it hit the flash point....

This particular owner just kept upping the breaker until it stopped popping but never addressed the wire.. The contact surface area on the hot tips is very small to be passing 15A + especially when the inside of the 12V socket looks like the statue of liberty from corrosion..... Oh and this happened charging a COMPUTER......:doh: Not what most would consider a "high load" item....

These devices can be VERY UNSAFE when "plugged-in". There should be laws prohibiting their use above a certain wattage for "plug in" use. Hell, I have a Cobra 400W inverter that came with a 12V socket adapter!!! :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

There is no 12V socket I know of that can SAFELY push 40A+ !!!!!!

Just because it came with a 12V socket it does not make it SAFE or PRUDENT for use on that circuit.........
 

Sumner

.
Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
Sum,

PLEASE be very careful using the plug in inverters. 180 Watts of inverter can be 18A on a 12V socket, enough to melt a plastic one or seriously over heat the wires to a metal one. 12V Sockets really should not have more than a 10A fuse ESPECIALLY the cheap plastic "marine" type... The highest rating I know of on a 12V socket is 15A most are 10A....

I'll dig out a pic later as to why ......

Yep, that is a good point and we only use it for the battery chargers. I have #10 wires going to the outlet we use and don't have any of our circuits...



... fused over 10 amps, so think we are fine, but that is good advice considering a lot of other people will use something that will max out an inverter at some point as you mentioned above,

Sum

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Our Endeavour 37

Our MacGregor 26-S Pages

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Apr 8, 2010
1,606
Frers 33 41426 Westport, CT
Couple important items worth mentioning. I have no AC power of any sort on the boat, no shore power connector, no shore power charger, no 110v outlets at all. I've included a simple diagram that covers the entire electricial system as is relevant to this discussion.

The inverter will be the sole source of 110v through a single duplex outlet. I currently get by with a ~100W plug in inverter that does most of what I need (charge cell phones for people who forget the 12v charger), but it can only handle the dremmel at low RPM, and trips anytime there is a moderate load on the motor, and it can only power my laptop if my laptop is off, or already fully charged (it can't handle charge and being powered on at the same time).

I really think I'd be happy with a 400w inverter, but I don't want to have to empty out a locker to get access to it if I trip the internal breaker, I want the remote switch...

What is the risk of installing the 600w knowing that it may be a little more inverter than the electricial circuit is able to power? wouldn't it just trip the breaker on the panel or trigger the low voltage alarm on the inverter?

I understand I'd be wasting a little money on the larger inverter and possibly never be able to utilize it's full power, but I'm ok with that if it means I get the remote switch.


OR

do you think I'd be better off with a 400W inverter and risking poping the internal breaker and having to empty a locker to get access to reset it?

Defender lists the 400 as "Includes a removable Deluxe Dual Bar Graph Remote that can be surface or flush mounted" but the pictures and description in the manual do not seem to support that claim.
 

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Sep 28, 2008
922
Canadian Sailcraft CS27 Victoria B.C.
FourPoints

Do you know what the max amp rating is for your entire panel? For example a Blue Seas 8 circuit Weatherdeck panel is rated at 45 amps total. Some of their other panels are rated at 100 amps total, but some are rated at only 50 amps.

As I posted earlier 6 awg over a 32' run is 10% voltage drop. And I do not know if the distance you measured takes into account the run from the batteries to the main switch and then to the positive and negative bus. Wiring an inverter through a panel (that may not be able to handle it) with a 10% voltage drop from the get go is a recipe for failure.

I would never wire an inverter from a DC panel.

You would be much better to wire the inverter to the batteries with fusing and a short run - the AC wiring will be longer but that is not a problem.
 
Apr 8, 2010
1,606
Frers 33 41426 Westport, CT
The panel is being custom built by Bass Products with a 60A main, so it's rated for at least that much. I had options of selecting a main breaker as large as Dual 100A for a 200A main, so I don't think the panel will have a problem with the load.

At 16ft (32 round trip), 12v DC @ 60 amps over 6 awg copper has a 6.5% drop, at 50 amps it is 5.52% and 40 amps is 4.33%, and at 20 amps 2.17% (http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm)


Putting the inverter by the batteries and running the 110v a longer distance (basically the same 16 feet) is an interesting idea, I'll check to see how far the remote can be ran from the inverter to see if that is an option or not.
 
Sep 28, 2008
922
Canadian Sailcraft CS27 Victoria B.C.
That disagrees with this calculator which I use very often. http://boatstuff.awardspace.com/awgcalc.html

Also disagrees with this one http://sailboatstuff.com/images/Imtra_Wiring Recommendations.pdf

What is the distance between the batteries and the switch, and from the switch to the bus? Is this included in your measurements as it should be.

If your panel has a 60 amp main the inverter would be ok as long as it is the only load. If you plan on other loads at the same time (lights, etc) it should be upgraded.

Between the voltage drop from the gauge/distance and because of the voltage drop your batteries will have when they are expected to supply up to 60 amps you may be surprised at the voltage the inverter is supplied with. I do not know how large your battery bank is but it appears from the schematic to be 2 single batteries on a 1/2/both switch.

As I posted I would never power an inverter from a main panel - the proper way is to wire direct to the batteries with proper fusing and short runs of the appropriate wire size.
 
Apr 8, 2010
1,606
Frers 33 41426 Westport, CT
That disagrees with this calculator which I use very often. http://boatstuff.awardspace.com/awgcalc.html

Also disagrees with this one http://sailboatstuff.com/images/Imtra_Wiring Recommendations.pdf
The site I used doesn't disagree with either of those sites. Both the awgcalc and the imtra chart are showing that for a maximum allowable drop of 10% you need a minimum of 6 awg, they are not saying that that 6 awg has a 10% drop.

You can see from my more precise calculation, that aligns perfect as the actual voltage drop is 6.5%, which is higher than the next increment (5%) your tool gives as an option, but less than the 10% max selected.




What is the distance between the batteries and the switch, and from the switch to the bus? Is this included in your measurements as it should be.
the distance from the battery to the connection of the 6 awg wire is (round trip) 6 or 7 feet (depends on which battery you are looking at), and it is 4 awg wire


If your panel has a 60 amp main the inverter would be ok as long as it is the only load. If you plan on other loads at the same time (lights, etc) it should be upgraded.
All the lights are LED and if I had every single one of them on at once (including Nav and Anchor lights) it would draw about 2A, so the biggest remaining drains are the chart plotter (3A max), VHF (3A?, when transmitting @ full power), and the bilge pump (fused at 3A), and the LED spreader lights (1.6A). That means at absolute peak I could use I would be drawing roughly 15A.

Could I draw more than the 60A main breaker allows if the inverter is pulling 50A, yes, but I would have to make a very deliberate attempt to do so... That is also why I chose a 60A main breaker. My research indicated that was the most that was safe to pull from a 6 awg wire for any sustained length of time.

My thought was that I would put breakers in place sized to the safe limit for the wires, and before any dangerous load limits were reached the breaker would have tripped. If the inverter is operating at max load (just because it's on doesn't mean it's pulling 50A), it might be able to pop it's own breaker, or even cause the main breaker to pop if there is a lot of other things generating additional load, but isn't that why the breakers are there, to shut things down before you draw so much load you overheat the wires and risk a fire?

Is the inverter going to be able to output a full 600w for a sustained period? sounds unlikley, but as long as I'm not putting the boat or people on the boat at risk with an unsafe configuration I don't care if I can sustain the full 600W rating. If I could get a 400W inverter with a remote panel I would, but I have not been able to find one.


Between the voltage drop from the gauge/distance and because of the voltage drop your batteries will have when they are expected to supply up to 60 amps you may be surprised at the voltage the inverter is supplied with. I do not know how large your battery bank is but it appears from the schematic to be 2 single batteries on a 1/2/both switch.
The bank is rated on the labels at 140AH in total, and yes it is just two batteries with a 1/2/B switch. Any inverter useage by requirement of the size of the bank, would be limited, and for short periods.

As I posted I would never power an inverter from a main panel - the proper way is to wire direct to the batteries with proper fusing and short runs of the appropriate wire size.

I am definitly open to this idea (it would locate the inverter in an easier to work on area we well), but I cannot seem to locate information on how far from the inverter the remote panel can be. There seems to be no documentation on the length of the wire for the remote panel for promariner, and I cannot tell what kind of connector is on it to see if it can be extended. From the picture it looks like it is not more than 10 feet, which is probably not going to reach.

The Xantrex PROwatt SW 600 Inverter has a 25 foot wire for the remote which would be more than enough to allow for this, but MS made a good case for steering my business away from them...
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,674
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
The Xantrex PROwatt SW 600 Inverter has a 25 foot wire for the remote which would be more than enough to allow for this, but MS made a good case for steering my business away from them...

But the ProWatt SW is a sine wave inverter and if charging batteries you won't destroy them. The ProWatt SW is a good unit but the company is only so so. I would not let that sway me on buying a better inverter. Personally I would never have an MSW inverter on my own boat again.. The ProWatt SW is the least expensive sine inverter I know of and is a good value despite the companies poor tech support...

Plus Phil sells them here and SBO stands behind stuff....

ProWatt SW Inverters SBO Store (LINK)
 
Apr 8, 2010
1,606
Frers 33 41426 Westport, CT
But the ProWatt SW is a sine wave inverter and if charging batteries you won't destroy them. The ProWatt SW is a good unit but the company is only so so. I would not let that sway me on buying a better inverter. Personally I would never have an MSW inverter on my own boat again.. The ProWatt SW is the least expensive sine inverter I know of and is a good value despite the companies poor tech support...

Plus Phil sells them here and SBO stands behind stuff....

ProWatt SW Inverters SBO Store (LINK)


OK...

I just checked with Bass and it wasn't too late to change the panel config (it's shipping out next week) so I had them remove the 50A circuit for the inverter which saved me ~$15, and will go half way to paying for the $30 difference in price between the ProMariner and the Xantrex (besides, I have called ProMariner 5 times today trying to get more information and have yet to speak to anyone besides the secretary that only transfers you to voice mail, Xantrex support cannot be much worse!)

How does this look for a new plan? I calculate this will have ~0.3v drop at 60A

I prefer to attach after the 1/2/B switch at the buss bar so that I can control what battery I am pulling from.
 

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Jan 22, 2008
8,050
Beneteau 323 Annapolis MD
I don't believe you plan on not putting a fuse between the +/- busses and the inverter, and another between the inverter and the outlets? I run both my 31s when using the inverter- and often run the engine, too- to minimize one battery being drawn down excessively.
 
Apr 8, 2010
1,606
Frers 33 41426 Westport, CT
I don't believe you plan on not putting a fuse between the +/- busses and the inverter, and another between the inverter and the outlets? I run both my 31s when using the inverter- and often run the engine, too- to minimize one battery being drawn down excessively.
I have a 130amp ANL fuse 6 inches (by total cable length) from the + bus bar, the inverter has it's own fuse at the input (I think, still checking the specs on the Xantrex, the ProMariner does for sure), and the 110v is GFCI and breakerd internally at the inverter against overload. Do I really need anything additional?
 

Sumner

.
Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
I have a 130amp ANL fuse 6 inches (by total cable length) from the + bus bar.


Why such a large fuse (135 amps). What size are the cables from the batteries to the switch and on to the bus? The way it is in the drawing above if there was a short in the power panel or before it you could have 135 amps going through those #6 cables to the panel.

Maybe replace the 135 amp with something less, like a 60 amp or 80 max. Your panel is 60 and you are also trying to limit the inverter amperage if I'm reading things right so I can't see you ever needing 135 amps even if the batteries would supply that.

How many amps do the tools you would like to use draw?

Sum

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