Bottom Paint Failing After 1 Month

Oct 20, 2016
56
Hunter 31 Seattle
I had my bottom repainted ($1300, plus $500 haul out), and after 1 month it's peeling off in a number of places. The shop is trying to blame it on the surface prep of previous layers (this is definitely partially true). This makes sense to me, but what are your thoughts? If it needed to be stripped down, they should've said that, rather than telling me to go ahead and have it painted and see how it goes, because obviously the paint was a total waste. I'll now have to have it stripped and repainted again in the spring.

That shop offered to give me a free coat of paint, but I'd still have the pay the additional haul out fee ($500). In addition, I'm a bit skeptical of going back to a shop that gave me such a crap paint job in the first place. I'm thinking of asking for a refund, but I doubt they'll do that since this is partially the fault of previous layers of paint. Still, they should've refused the work unless I authorized a total paint strip, which would've been another $2500.

Here are photos of a bottom job that's less than 1 month old:

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Jan 4, 2006
6,444
Hunter 310 West Vancouver, B.C.
What are we looking at in the first picture ............... is that gel coat under the bottom paint ?
Botom Paint.JPG


I suspect it is and if so, the problem is due to the hull not being roughed up enough when the first coat of bottom paint was applied. My condolences if that's the case :wahwah:. I agree with you that this problem should have given all sorts of warning to an experienced painter. Just gently scraping the surface with a blade should have peeled off sheets of paint leaving bare gel coat. The area about a foot above the bare gel coat (first photo) should peel right off if you pick at it.

Use a blade and remove a large patch of the bottom paint to check how rough the gel coat is. It should be rough for bottom paint to stick tightly, and if not, the paint will eventually release.

The dealer I had (when I purchased the boat new) used something called liquid sandpaper which did nothing more than just remove the gloss. Not enough to hold bottom paint.

I suffered with this problem for a few years until I got so ticked at finding 1/4 of my bottom paint gone each time it was pressure washed, I sanded the entire below water surface down to the gel coat and seeing as how I was down there, applied a barrier coat. Never had a problem after that.

I see you paid HOW MUCH for bottom painting ? ? ? ? ? You may want to consider taking up "doing it yourself" at those prices. Maybe even add a barrier coat while you're down there. Couldn't hurt.
 
Oct 20, 2016
56
Hunter 31 Seattle
Yup, that is gel coat, so they painted over poorly adhered substrate, at least in some areas. Definitely a fail on their part for going forward with the paint knowing the condition of what was under it, or they should've done some more work on removing poorly adhered old paint. Even the keel, it's flaking off and the keel is corroded under the paint. Pretty disappointing job to say the least to see so many holes. I feel like they should at least refund me a partial cost of the paint job.

Neither my surveyor nor the painter figured out that the original layer of paint had poor surface prep. I'm at a new yard now, and they confirmed that I need a full strip and roughening up of the gelcoat to get it all to stick if I want a good bottom job.

That's pretty standard pricing, $1300 for bottom paint is pretty cheap around Seattle. I got a bunch of quotes, and this was the cheapest. What are other people paying? Maybe depends on where you live? I'm most likely looking at around $4000 in the spring to get full strip down and 2 coats of paint. Not a small job to get the surface prep right, and since I haven't done it before, I'd rather not risk it, and then have to haul out again to repaint a 3rd time in a year.

The only way I could do a DIY paint job is to take vacation. I only have time to do projects on my boat at the slip on nights and and weekends. Also, I'm moving onto the boat soon, so any time in yards needs to be as minimal as possible.
 
Jan 4, 2006
6,444
Hunter 310 West Vancouver, B.C.
they painted over poorly adhered substrate, at least in some areas.
I'm afraid that applies to ALL areas of the hull. I can remember painting over bare areas one year and having it look good for a few years while other areas fell away. After a few years, the first area has fallen away again :banghead:.

I'm most likely looking at around $4000 in the spring to get full strip down and 2 coats of paint.
Hopefully you're new yard is a little more on the ball than the last one but just in case ..................... be sure they bottom paint the first coat a different colour than the second. I did my first coat with black and the following coats with blue as is yours. The black is your indicator that the surface coats are gone and it's time to repaint. And I'm assuming you're using ablative where you are.

I know what you mean about keeping your yard time minimal. I have no idea how I maintained this boat and held a job at the same time. So glad I quit the job and now spend all my winter time working on the boat.
 
Oct 20, 2016
56
Hunter 31 Seattle
The last yard was terrible, I'm super disappointed that I wasted $1800, and that was only last month! I'm also disappointed that neither the previous owner, broker, or surveyor indicated to me that this boat needed to be totally stripped down. The surveyor and boatyard who did the paint made no big deal of it, they basically said to just slap another coat of paint on it w/ some minimal prep. Where is the accountability for these people? I've already called/emailed them, but of course nobody wants to give someone cash for their mistakes. I'm basically going to be stuck eating the $1800 I wasted on paint and a haul out last month.

That yard thinks that giving me a free coat of paint will solve it, but it's not that simple for me. There's also the $500 cost of haul out since it's all done through the dock workers union. I specifically wanted the bottom paint done before I lived on the boat, because I'll need a place to live while the boat is in the yard. Their yard is also about 4-6 hours away by boat, plus I'd have to keep it up there at least a few days, so it's just not practical for me to even go through them at this point, it would be a huge pain. What I really need is for that yard to admit to their mistake of painting over a poorly adhered substrate, and to cut me a check.

I think before I get the bottom job in the spring, I'm going to spend some time asking around to get good boatyard recommendations. It seems like there are a lot of people in the boat business who are dishonest and just want to hustle you.
 

RoyS

.
Jun 3, 2012
1,739
Hunter 33 Steamboat Wharf, Hull, MA
This will happen if you add a fresh coat of paint every year. I suggest that you strip the old paint and then apply a fresh coat of an ablative. In subsequent years you can touch up paint worn spots or chips only until the bottom clearly needs a total fresh coat. In this manner you can avoid paint build up which is prone to chipping.
 
Oct 20, 2016
56
Hunter 31 Seattle
I thought the best practice was to strip, then barrier coat, then 2 layers of paint. It looks like I'm losing paint down to the gelcoat, so I believe I'd need a barrier coat first?
 

Gunni

.
Mar 16, 2010
5,937
Beneteau 411 Oceanis Annapolis
What RoyS said. I see this all the time. Here's the deal, if you keep slapping paint on a hull you will reach the point where the entire buildup separates from the hull. If you read the paint manufacturers service bulletins they tell you this. And I see plenty of owners go for years sanding and patching flakes so that is an option if the bottom work is inconvenient. It is entirely plausible that the yard figured you as one of those guys, especially if you delivered them a boat with a flaking bottom paint and requested a paint job.

Underlying your comments I see a mix of complaining and ignorance of boat ownership. Take this all as a lesson on how you maintain your boat's bottom and take control of the decisions about how it is done. Don't blame yard workers for being as clueless as you are. Shop smarter for good maintenance yards and be prepared to take and pay for their expertise. Boats are expensive, more so if you don't educate yourself. My previous owner was one of those guys who requested a hard paint bottom paint job every year and when I did a short haul it looked worse than your hull. He had the bottom sanded down 5 years previous, but he took a hit when I deducted the cost of full bottom job from his asking price. That keel is going to need some R&R, see my comments on the "iron keel" thread.
 
Oct 20, 2016
56
Hunter 31 Seattle
My quick internet research shows this:

1. Have the hull soda blasted down to fiberglass/gelcoat
2. Let the hull dry out for at least 1-2 weeks, possibly more depending on moisture content. Work should ideally be done in an area that's dry and warm.
3. Apply epoxy resin over areas of bare fiberglass, repair all blisters
4. Apply multiple layers of an epoxy coating (I believe 4 coats are typically required)
5. Apply two layers of anti-fouling paint

This is a major process, and not cheap or quick. I'm imagining that a boatyard would charge at least $5000 for this work. I'm not sure how much of this is DIY, especially since I haven't done any painting, I'd rather not waste time and money doing it wrong.

It looks like once this process is complete, I could then be on a regular schedule of adding 1 layer of anti-fouling paint as mine wears aware. However, at this point it seems I have no choice but to do the full strip and coating system.
 

KD3PC

.
Sep 25, 2008
1,069
boatless rainbow Callao, VA
I thought the best practice was to strip, then barrier coat, then 2 layers of paint. It looks like I'm losing paint down to the gelcoat, so I believe I'd need a barrier coat first?
you need to see what the bottom "paint" showing through in Picture 1 actually is...if it is gel coat AND the hull is "dry" (no internal moisture issues or blisters). then Yes, you can prep the hull properly and apply a barrier coat - BUT that requires a well prepped hull, knowledgeable painters and decent quality materials.

IF that white spot is already a "barrier" coat, usually barrier coat is off colored, then you need to clean it, prep (per the barrier coat makers information) and apply two coats or so of bottom paint. Being in Seattle - there are restrictions on what type of bottom paint you can use.

Applying more paint to an already poor surface is not the best process, as you have already seen.

Any of this will require a few days on the hard, so you need to think about a hotel or crash pad with friends, unless the yard will let you live aboard during the process.

Owning a boat is not for the feint of heart. With your other post (mast step) - you are likely quite stressed. Again, take a deep breath.

Any pics of the original bottom - before paint?? The keel needs different prep and does not look bad at all...

Be sure to clean the boat bottom as soon as she is hauled....leaving it hang or dry out - doubles the work
 
Oct 20, 2016
56
Hunter 31 Seattle
I think the reality is, I need to plan for an extended haul out for extensive surface prep and coating around July/Aug of 2017. I won't be able to live on the boat during that time, so I should plan to get an apartment. It will be extremely expensive and time consuming, but that's what it takes to do it right.

"Underlying your comments I see a mix of complaining and ignorance of boat ownership"

Absolutely! I knew 0 about boats before July 2016, so I'm brand new to this, and I will make big mistakes for a while. I've spent a huge amount of time in the last few months not only learning to sail, but learning about boat systems and creating a truly massive spreadsheet and word documents of every single part of the boat that needs to be repaired, cost to repair, and products for best practice. Getting started from scratch is no small effort, but I'm getting there. I can't learn everything in a few months, that's why I farmed out the coating work to a yard. I thought I could trust a boatyard, but that was my mistake.

I relied too much on my surveyor, previous owner, boatyard, and broker. They basically don't care, they just said to slap a coat of paint on it, they aren't interested in the details. I'm generally a bit naive to the truth: most people want to take as much money from me for as little work as possible (no kidding).

Complaining: I blame myself for trusting anyone. Most people in the boat industry are simply out to hustle, just like everyone else. It's a massive buyer beware when it comes to boats. I have been doing most of the work myself since I got the boat in August, buying lots of books and doing internet research. Results on my own work are excellent. I'd prefer to do work myself because I believe the quality of work I produce is far beyond what any boatyard would be willing to do for any reasonable cost. I'll spend hours on very small details because it's my boat. I'm guessing this is the norm.
 
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Oct 20, 2016
56
Hunter 31 Seattle
What do you mean by cleaning it immediately? They always power wash it in the sling, do you mean I should strip the paint immediately while it's still wet? I think surface prep here will involve soda blasting or orbital sanders, but I'll need to research surface prep.
 

Gunni

.
Mar 16, 2010
5,937
Beneteau 411 Oceanis Annapolis
Most people in the boat industry are simply out to hustle, just like everyone else.
That simply is not true. But there are a lot incompetent tradesmen. As my mama taught me, "you got two ears and one mouth for a reason".
they basically don't care, they just said to slap a coat of paint on it, they aren't interested in the details.
If you haul every year you can get by for a while by simply light sanding and patching the flakes. There are worse things than flaking bottom paint, take a deep breath and prioritize your boat projects - there will be many, and some may be critical.
I'd prefer to do work myself because I believe the quality of work I produce is far beyond what any boatyard would be willing to do for any reasonable cost.
A worthy aspiration. As a new owner still trying to figure this stuff out what makes you think you know how to do this job right, that you can do it better, or you know what a reasonable cost will be? I apologize for how harsh that sounds but this job is time consuming, expensive, and if you do it wrong can create problems for years to come including hull blistering and even more work.
 
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Oct 22, 2014
20,995
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
What do you mean by cleaning it immediately?
Power washing the boat when it is still wet means the critters (barnacles etc) will not dry out like cement on the boats bottom. Makes it easier to get to the paint.
 
Oct 20, 2016
56
Hunter 31 Seattle
Gunni - thanks for the tips. Gelcoat blistering was minimal when I had it hauled in Oct 2016, so it's not a big issue right now. I'll spend some time thinking about my options and researching boatyards around Seattle, hopefully there's a good honest shop around here. I'd rather take care of this issue sooner than later, so I'll probably be looking to do the work in summer 2017. You're probably right about the DIY issue. I don't have any equipment or experience, so getting down surface prep and painting would probably not work out if I tried to do it myself.

jss - thanks for the tip. I figured out that it's typical to have the bottom power washed in the sling right after haul out. I'll keep doing that.
 
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Oct 22, 2014
20,995
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
SE which yard are you using now. One of the former owners of my boat used a yard on the Ballard Canal. They let him do his own work and he said he got a lot of good suggestions while painting the bottom. I am looking at the bottom this coming year. Clean, Strip, paint. Likely will hire someone for the task. Till then I have a diver inspect the bottom twice a year.
 
Feb 10, 2004
3,918
Hunter 40.5 Warwick, RI
My two cents: I bought my boat new in 1997. The dealer prepped the bottom and I applied the first coats of bottom paint. I was told that the prep was a wipe-down with a solvent to remove all of the mold release wax and then an application of a no-sand primer to give the bottom some tooth for the bottom paint to adhere. This was a major Hunter dealer in the northeast and I accepted their plan. I then applied a black signal coat and then two coats of color using a 3/8" roller. Two years later I scuffed the bottom and applied two more coats of ablative paint using a 3/8" nap roller. This process continued for the first 12 years or so. Then I had a flaking and peeling problem and discovered that several mistakes were made.

The problem was that in some areas large flakes of bottom paint were coming off all the way down to the gelcoat. After talking with painting professionals at my yard and researching on the 'net, I came to the following conclusions-
First, at the outset the bottom should have been solvent washed very thoroughly. I don't know how well this was done because I wasn't present. Secondly the bottom should have been sanded to provide tooth for the bottom paint. I think that a barrier coat(s) should have also been applied. And finally, I applied way too much bottom paint.

The bottom paint manufacturers tell you to use a 3/8" nap roller. I think this is bad advice. Using this roller will cause more paint than necessary to be applied. And applying a second coat just adds to the amount of paint. Over the years, the paint builds up because the paint doesn't ablate back to the original signal coat. And my experience is that after a couple years the effectiveness of the multi-year paint becomes poor. And I don't care if the manufacturers say it works; for me it doesn't.
So after 12 years my buddy and I began to aggressively sand the bottom every year with a vacuum sander and 60 grit paper. We chipped all the loose paint each year (yes it continued to flake) and feathered the edges before applying more paint. And we follow the sanding with a liberal solvent wash-down changing rags frequently. Now we apply one very thin coat of ablative paint with a 3/16" roller and work to keep the coat as thin as possible while covering. We do this every year using about 5 quarts of paint for a 40' boat. Previously almost 2 1/2 gallons were used with the 3/8" nap roller. I have come to the conclusion that slow moving sailboats (vs powerboats) simply do not wear off the paint as quickly as a powerboat. The paint manufacturers don't differentiate between sail and power for application technique.
Now, after 19 years, my hull has minimal paint thickness. I still get some flaking each year, but it is becoming less and less.

Certainly a complete strip, prep, and barrier coat would be great to do, but that work is beyond what I want to do myself and I have bigger fish to fry. I should add that I don't race, so as long as the bottom is reasonably smooth and I don't collect growth, I am satisfied. YMMV.
 

Mikem

.
Dec 20, 2009
820
Hunter 466 Bremerton
Matt Harris is an excellent surveyor recommended by fellow HAPS members who used to commission Hunters. Ridenour Rigging and Repair. Matts number is 360-647-6966. Mobile 360-815-0535.

Cheers

Mike
 

RoyS

.
Jun 3, 2012
1,739
Hunter 33 Steamboat Wharf, Hull, MA
I agree with Rich concerning the poor choice of using a 3/8" nap roller. I only use a foam roller and 1 gallon neatly covers my 33' boat. I also agree that multi-season paints do lose their effectiveness after a few seasons. If you listen to the manufacturers you would apply several heavy coats with a 3/8" roller, then sand it off the following year with 80 grit sand paper before applying several more heavy coats with a 3/8" roller. Great waste of paint.
 
Jun 9, 2008
1,771
- -- -Bayfield
Much has been covered and so I probably don't need to write anything,but I will anyway ;-). There can be a number of reasons why paint won't stick. As mentioned several times, the hull has to be sanded. Thoroughly sanded so that it is frosty and there is absolutely no shine left. But, before sanding, particularly if the boat is new, there is probably mold release (wax), which has to be completely removed before sanding, or you will be sanding the wax into the sanding grooves. Removing wax is not a simple wipe down with solvent or wax remover, but diligent wiping, turning the towel frequently so you expose clean towel to the hull and not just push the wax about with the same old cloth. Use lots of cloths or paper towels. Make sure the cloths don't have some sort of solvent or something in them that will also contaminate the hull. After you know the hull is completely clean, make sure you let the solvent dry. It takes some time to evaporate. Then sand diligently to a frosty finish and then clean again as I earlier mentioned. Now you can paint. Of course if you have a boat that is sanded to the gelcoat, there is no better time to add an epoxy barrier coat for blister prevention. Most paints will adhere to the barrier coat without sanding if you apply the bottom paint within a certain window of time. Check the products for such info. Other reasons for paint chipping off is incompatibility from previously applied bottom paints. Make sure you check the compatibility charts of the products you are using. Then of course, don't paint the second and more coats (if called for) before you give the previous coat time to dry. If you rush the process the drying solvents might have not dissipated before you start applying the next coat. The temperature in which you are applying the paint also might have some issue. So, that is a summary. Good luck. If you paid someone to apply the paint, I think they owe you a redo.