BOOM KICKER WITH A ROTATING MAST

[Jerry Zitterkopf]

I recently purchased a Boom Kicker (BK) for my 2009 M. After the fact I spoke with Blue Water Yacht and they advised me that their impression has been that the BK does not function well with rotating masts. I would like to hear from some folks that are using a BK with their M. I think all Ms from the factory had rotating masts. Does it work well for you? Do you find it to be a real plus?
Thanks
Jerry

 

[Joe]

Have you installed it yet? Or are you thinking of returning it? When someone says they have an impression on anything he's either trying to be nice or he doesn't know. What exactly does he say the problem is? All the boomkicker does is support the boom.. if it's attached to the mast, it would rotate with it... so what exactly is his "impression" of the issue. If he can't tell you that.. then I would disregard the advice.
Hook it up and enjoy it's benefit.

 

[Jerry Zitterkopf]

Have you installed it yet? Or are you thinking of returning it? When someone says they have an impression........

I have not installed it but I'm at a point where I'm getting ready to do just that, then the comment came up. He did not elaborate. Seems like he said it didn't always work well. That did seem to contradict what I was able to find on this and other forums. Some people simply prefer a topping lift for their reasons and others prefer (often absolutely love) their BK for their reasons. My goal with this post was to hear from some Mac M owners with a swiveling mast and see if they had any issues related to this particular design.

I was never worth a hoot in chemistry but physics was pretty intuitive and clear for me. I could not see why the BK should do anything more or anything less than what it was designed for on a rotating mast, BUT I'm not omniscient so I thought I would listen to what some real Macgregor owners had to say. Seems like the hinge on the mast allows it to swivel and to do what it was designed to do and the BK is hinged at the mast to all it to follow the boom regardless of what the mast is doing. The only thing I could fathom, might be that the interaction between the BK and the vang might not for some reason be complimentary for some reason, but then again the vang is going every where the boom goes so why would there be an issue there if the vang was set properly for the conditions at hand? Anyway. Thanks Joe. I "liked" your comment.

 

[centerline]

with a rotating mast, and a conventional gooseneck, there are too many moving joints for it to work as intended... the boom kicker being "spring" loaded may have a tendency to turn the mast sideways...
with the boom kicker mounted to a fixed mast, the boom is the only moving part and it is controlled by the sheet and wind pressure, which swings the boom from one side to the other... this is the normal workings of them, with or without the boom kicker...

but with a rotating mast, when the boom swings to the side, the pressure at the foot of the boom kicker, as its supporting the boom, will push against its mounting on the mast and cause the mast to shift in the other direction.... it puts a kink in the works.

the PO of my boat installed a boom kicker without doing his research... the boat was equipped with a rotating boom, and the spring pressure of the boom kicker wanted to turn the mast on its side, rather than keep it in its normal position.... and it doesnt matter where the extra joint is, when there is one, the springy boom kicker puts a kink the works and it DOES NOT work as designed.
in my case, it was easy enough to modify the gooseneck so it doesnt rotate, but unless you either have a gooseneck that ONLY ALLOWS the boom to swing WITH the mast and NOT independently of the mast, your problem kind of rules out the boom kicker option... unless you can either fix the boom to the mast, or fix the mast to its base so its a non-rotating mast.....

and as for needing or wanting a boom kicker, I still prefer the topping lift over the boom kicker.... Ive thought about building a telescopic "boom stop", to be used in place of the boom kicker, to prevent the boom from dropping too far if I should release the halyard before the topping lift is tensioned.... this would eliminate the springy boom caused by the kicker and minimize the use of the vang.... as it is now with the boom kicker in place, I have to have the vang snugged all the time to keep the bag out of the sail, even if the wind isnt blowing....

 

[walt]

I think I would ask your source if the issue was mechanical or if there was just no performance benifit with the rotating mast.

I suspect its mechanical like Centerline pointed out and the spring in the boom kicker might work against the natural tendency of the mast to self rotate. Besides the boom kicker sort of replacing a topping lift, you can also use it in conjunction with the vang to dial in main sail shape in very light wind. This is mainly where I use my boom kicker (I still have a topping lift) and I do "think" it makes a difference but have to admit half the reason I have it is that I saw Jackdaw had one on his boat LOL..

But that very light wind is where you likely have the most problem with the mast rotating on its own to the correct position. You might add the boom kicker to improve light air performance but then introduce more issue with rotation in that light air.

Speculation on my part about the rotation issue but its somewhat based on owning several boats with rotating masts. A long time ago, there was a poster here with an M and he had added a couple control lines likely coming back to the cockpit that he used to force the mast rotation and I dont think this was done because of using a boom kicker, it just likely helped in very light wind. The "rotation inducer" would likely easily overcome any rotation issues the boom kicker might cause.

Im speculating about what the problem is of course and it could be off.

(seriously off topic but since you live in Kingman..... around Feb 10-20 a bunch of trailer boats are going to spend some days at Cottonwood cove marina on Lake Mohave. Most people are driving/ launching at Cottonwood but we are planning on launching from Willow Beach, go down the Colorado river through the Black Canyon water trail then spend a few days at Cottonwood cove with the group. PM me for any details if you are interested..)

 

[Sumner]

.... so I thought I would listen to what some real Macgregor owners had to say.....

Keep coming back here but here is a site with lots of M owners on it ...

http://www.macgregor26x.com/forum/index.php

I frequent there and here ,

Sumner
==========================================================
1300 miles to The Bahamas and Back in the Mac...
Endeavour 37 Mods...
MacGregor 26-S Mods...http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/endeavour-main/endeavour-index.html
Mac Trips to Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, Canada, Florida, Bahamas

 

[Jerry Zitterkopf]

.....the PO of my boat installed a boom kicker without doing his research... the boat was equipped with a rotating boom, and the spring pressure of the boom kicker wanted to turn the mast on its side, rather than keep it in its normal position.... and it doesn't matter where the extra joint is, when there is one, the springy boom kicker puts a kink in the works and it DOES NOT work as designed.
in my case, it was easy enough to modify the gooseneck so it doesn't rotate, but unless you either have a gooseneck that ONLY ALLOWS the boom to swing WITH the mast and NOT independently of the mast, your problem kind of rules out the boom kicker option... unless you can either fix the boom to the mast, or fix the mast to its base so its a non-rotating mast.....

Above in the quote see the highlighted words. In this case you are discussing a rotating boom and you meant to point out the BK will turn the "boom" on its side; correct? But essentially, all boiled down, the boom kicker exerts pressure on a rotating mast and therefore "kicks" it away from its natural angle AND if a rotating boom is present it will "kick" it to some extent on its side which complicates what the wind is naturally doing with the boom and its relationship to the sail. So either a rotating mast or gooseneck introduces a problem for a BK equipped rig. Centerline....a lot of well thought out information here. I appreciate your input.

 

[Jackdaw]

First of all, lots of boats with rotating mast also have rigid vangs. As the downward loads are the same on the two pieces of gear, that in itself will not be a problem.

So is there an issue? On Macs that I have seen with rotating MASTS, the mast is very light and the profile is very teardrop shaped, with a very fine trailing edge where the sail slot is. With a boomkicker, there will not be a large/flat mating surface betweeen the two parts that you would see in an oval spar. Is that a problem? Maybe. Not if the kicker presses straight into the mast, but because the mast rotates and can be off alignment... Your call. You could fab a much more curved mast piece and solve the problem totally.

Beyond acting as a way-cool looking topping lift ;^) , the boomkicker will hold the boom up when sailing in light airs, key to keeping sail shape and sailing fast.

 

[Jerry Zitterkopf]

I think I would ask your source if the issue was mechanical or if there was just no performance benefit with the rotating mast....(seriously off topic but since you live in Kingman..... around Feb 10-20 a bunch of trailer boats are going to spend some days at Cottonwood cove marina on Lake Mohave. Most people are driving/ launching at Cottonwood but we are planning on launching from Willow Beach, go down the Colorado river through the Black Canyon water trail then spend a few days at Cottonwood cove with the group. PM me for any details if you are interested..)

"My source was current tech support for the older Macs. The conversation was not in much detail and he was not trying to sell or unsell me on anything regarding the Boom Kicker. He talks to Mac owners every day and has done so for years and simply indicated that there seemed to be some issues associated with the BK and rotating masts, and according to Centerline, also with rotating booms. I don't think the standard gooseneck on a M rotates or at least rotates very much so my chief concern would be with the rotating mast which, when you think about it, would tend to kick the trailing edge of the mast back toward the center line which would negate, at least to some extent, the benefits of a rotating mast. I guess then it boils down to whether the loss here is less than the benefits afforded the boat by using a BK.

So Walt, you have an S. Forgive my ignorance. Does it have a rotating mast? Sounds like you did install a BK on your S. If you have a rotating mast, did you feel it negated or decreased, maybe, the ability of the mast to rotate to its natural wind
induced position? Do you feel it reduced sail efficiency to some extent or did the positives out weigh the negative.

With regard to Cottonwood. We are going to try and be there. We will put the boat in at Princess Cove and sail north under the power line although I have to say it creeps me out a bit every time we do that. I may motor under it and then put the mast up.

 

[Jerry Zitterkopf]

First of all, lots of boats with rotating mast also have rigid vangs. As the downward loads are the same on the two pieces of gear, that in itself will not be a problem.....

I suppose one thought would be to just install the thing and get some first hand experience with it. It is easily removed, as it must be to be used on a trailer sailor, if one feels like it throws a monkey wrench into the works . I just hate the idea of wasting a couple of hundred bucks and the dangling hardware left behind should that be the case.

My hunch is, in lighter air, the BK will be a nice plus (helping to bag the sail etc.) as you pointed out, probably outweighing any negative benefits associate with kicking the mast out of perfect alignment. In heavier air, upwards of 12 knots or so, I'm guessing the sail will have its way with the mast regardless of what the little sticks down on the boom have to say. The Vang will come into play at some point to flatten the sail for better "inefficiency" in the higher wind conditions. Thanks Jack. Appreciate your thoughts.

 

[Jerry Zitterkopf]

Sumner,
Thanks. I'll have a look see.

 

[walt]

My boat is a 26S and it has a fixed non rotating mast so no problems with the boom kicker. If you are a more relaxed sailer and dont worry about racing other boats in very light winds, you probably wont notice the boom kicker doing anything even using it to hold up the boom to improve main sail shape. Its for those super light wind "racing" with other boats where it can make a difference. But its like going from super slow to 1.001 times super slow. However, if you are in a "race", that small difference in sail shape matters.

I dont have a M and that link Sumner posted is where to find lots of M owners but I think there have been discussions about problems with the mast rotating in very light wind. You can find mods where people put bearings at the bottom pivot, etc. So it was a guess on my part that the boom kicker could possibly hinder the self rotation that should be occurring. FYI, I think the 26S has the same shape mast as the M but slightly smaller. I have an older BK but it all mounts just fine. Another reason I suspect the problem you heard about was hindering rotation in light winds.

Regarding the idea I saw someone post with a 26M to force rotation of the mast, Im not sure what that guy did but here is what I did. I havent sailed this boat for while but have a completely experimental boat that I modified to have the mast rotate. If you get all the axis pivot points correct, the mast will self rotate but I had an issue where in high winds, the mast would rotate to the exact wrong spot so I added a "rotation inducer". It works nicely, I just tack the mast along with the boat. Solves other problems also like the mast banging around in no wind when a power boat goes by and creates waves.

 

[Jerry Zitterkopf]

My boat is a 26S and it has a fixed non rotating mast so no problems with the boom kicker.

I see what you did. Interesting. At least for now, I'm a long ways from being a racer. .001 performance enhancement does nothing to raise my blood pressure. It seems like the BK has its positive points. In the final analysis, a guy has to decide if those are the "points" he is looking for and add them to his boat...or not. I sent you a private message regarding the Cottonwood Cove get together.

 

[Joe]

Many racing dinghys and catamarans have rotating masts. I have one on my Nacra 5.2. The idea of the rotating mast is to line it up aerodynamically with the curve of the mainsail. So a non swiveling gooseneck would be counter productive.... the mast would be lining up with the boom... not the sail. Neither do you want it to over rotate... so you must have some kind of control on how much the mast can swing away from the boom.

On my beach cat there is a foot long rotation control arm connected to the lower end of the mast below the boom.

It has a small block on the end.... a control line is attached to the boom above the end of the rotator arm. It threads through the little block and back to a small vee cleat with a fair lead mounted behind the other attachment point. This controls the amount of mast rotation to boom position. It's so simple. You can set it and forget it... or do a lot of tweaking on every tack. I used it when ever I changed a point of sail... but not for minor apparent wind changes. (some cat sailors will mount the control arm facing forward with controls lines going to small cleats on the cross beam... giving the crew more active control.)

So... my suggestion is to install the boom kicker. Sail with it for a while ... if it becomes unruly... rig up a mast rotation control system.

 

[Bungee Cord]

I recently purchased a Boom Kicker (BK) for my 2009 M. After the fact I spoke with Blue Water Yacht and they advised me that their impression has been that the BK does not function well with rotating masts. I would like to hear from some folks that are using a BK with their M. I think all Ms from the factory had rotating masts. Does it work well for you? Do you find it to be a real plus?
Thanks
Jerry

They sell boom kickers for Macgregors on this site. I have never had any trouble with mine. Every thing rotates together.

 

[Jerry Zitterkopf]

They sell boom kickers for Macgregors on this site. I have never had any trouble with mine. Every thing rotates together.

I called BoomKicker Ted today. The designer. He says he has sold 146 of them to Mac M owenrs and no one has ever sent him one back. He seemed like a very nice guy and did not try to persuade me to keep it or return it. I think Joe above has the right idea. Give it a try. Ted did point out some errors in use that can aggravate non rotation of the mast, mainly letting the vang slop. They both need to be under some tension together and when they are they rotate together with the mast. He pointed out that in some M s there was a mast rotation problem even without the BK so that could be an issue as well. Thanks for your input.

 

[Jerry Zitterkopf]

Many racing dinghys and catamarans have rotating masts. I have one on my Nacra 5.2. The idea of the rotating mast is to line it up aerodynamically with the curve of the mainsail. So a non swiveling gooseneck would be counter productive.... the mast would be lining up with the boom... not the sail. Neither do you want it to over rotate... so you must have some kind of control on how much the mast can swing away from the boom.

Thanks Joe. Gives me something to think about. I think our friend above was talking about a rotating boom not a non swiveling gooseneck though.