1984 H27 Head Liner

Oct 30, 2011
91
Hunter Cherubini 27 Mason
I need to replace and relocate the rope clutch which is located on the Starboard cabin top and also add a winch . To do this I will need to cut away part of the cabin headliner. How is this headliner held in place and how large of a space (if any) is there between the headline and deck. Secondly I want to tighten all of the Toe Rail bolts, some of these are next to impossible to get at. How much of a structural component is the headliner. It would make this job much easier if I could cut away the part of the headliner that forms a valance over these bolts. I intend to replace whatever section I cut away that is readily visible , but doing so in a way that it can easily be remover for future access. Will this seriously compromise the structural integrity of the headliner .
 
Oct 6, 2007
1,023
Hunter H30 1982 Chicago IL
Some, but not all, of the Cherubini Hunters have an aluminum plate laminated between the fiberglass and the plywood core on the cabintop to each side of the companionway for the drill and tap installation of rope clutches and winches. It depends on the model and the year. My '82 H30 has it, and it still seems quite sound, but earlier H30's don't. I don't know about the H27. As BlowMeAway said, Mr. Cherubini is the go to authority on these boats.

What I can tell you is the space between my headliner and cabintop seems to vary from zero or nearly zero at the centerline (I say that because there is little to no flex when I push up on it there.) to one to two inches at the outer edges. I don't know how much the headliner actually contributes to the cabintop structurally. Probably at least some.

Last spring I changed my cabintop mounted traveler from the original threaded bolts to through bolted. The laminated aluminum plate there is relatively small, set in raised areas flanking the sea hood. It had penetrations from several sets of old hardware, there was only one bolt at each end holding down the traveler and those were pretty near the front edge of the aluminum plate, so I felt that a through-bolt installation would be better. As a precautionary measure, in case there was any unseen decay or delamination (I detected none.), I first drilled out and filled the old bolt holes with penetrating epoxy. Then I set fiberglass backer plates in thickened epoxy and installed flush cover (the cover hides the screw flange) Beckson inspection ports in the headliner for access. There was plenty of space above there because of the raised location. If I recall, there was maybe only an inch or so of clearance beyond the raised area.

PS: I ordered the Beckson ports from this site.
 
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Oct 6, 2007
1,023
Hunter H30 1982 Chicago IL
To answer the last part of your post. While it may be debatable how much, if any, structural support the headliner provides to the cabintop, yes, the headliner flange definitely does provide structural support to the headliner itself. Do NOT cut away the flange at the edges of the headliner. It provides stiffness. If you cut it away, the outer areas of the headliner will sag or become wavy.

Think about the construction sequence of the boat. The headliner had to go in before the deck and the toe rail. Therefore, the toe rail bolts have to be accessible from inside. They may be a PITA to get to, but they are accessible.

If I needed to tighten my toe rail bolts, I can think of two things I could do to make access a bit easier without doing anything so drastic as cutting away the headliner flange. First, I could temporarily remove the wood trim that covers the headliner trim to provide a little better access. Of course, I'm assuming you have the same wood trim in your H27. Second, I could temporarily remove the shelves in the V-berth for better access.

Hopefully some of this is helpful.
 
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Nov 8, 2007
1,523
Hunter 27_75-84 Sandusky Harbor Marina, Ohio
Here is the link to my mod to add two organizer pulleys, a dual rope clutch, a winch, and a cleat to the stbd side of our cabin top on our '77 h27.

http://hunter.sailboatowners.com/mods.php?task=article&mid=16&aid=7355&mn=27_75-84

There were no aluminum plates embedded in the cabin top to mount this hardware on our boat.

My technique was to drill 3/4 inch holes from the top of the deck, fill with epoxy, let harden, drill 1/4 inch holes through the deck and liner, then fasten the hardware down with 1/4 inch bolts, fender washers, and appropriate nuts. The mod is still working great after 13 years - no leaks or other issues!

The liner "floats," providing no structural support to the deck above it. The only issue could be wires for cabin lights running between the liner and deck. Luckily, I hit none of them.

I can get to all my toerail bolt nuts with a deep socket and extension for my socket wrench, although some require contortions! There are small differences between the '77 and '84 models, but I would not worry about the liner sagging. In the worst case, you could simply use a screw to attach it to the deck if a sag did develop after trimming the flange to give you the accesss you need. I would not replace the flange if you remove it. The toerail fasteners need tightening every few years in my experience.

Good luck! You have a great cruising boat for a couple and up to two more on occcasion. We have put over 7,000 miles on ours.
 
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Oct 30, 2011
91
Hunter Cherubini 27 Mason
Thanks for the link Dave, that's exactly what I want to do. I like the addition of the Hand Hold, I just added that to my TTD list.
 
Jun 5, 2010
1,107
Hunter 25 Burlington NJ
Looks like Marty's question got pretty well handled here but I just replied to Marty's PM.

As I said to Marty, the worst feature of the pretty molded-fiberglass headliner is the mystery beyond it. How much gap is there can, as was said above, vary from anything to nothing. The most important thing to remember (as was said above) is that it offers next to nothing-- okay, really just nothing-- in the way of structural support to anything. So drilling mounting holes through from topside through the headliner gets you essentially nothing more than a mess. And yet there is really no alternative for attaching anything to using proper backing blocks, which the headliner stands to inhibit you from doing.

I've contributed a few times about my bonehead/mooyock/simplest-is-smartest way of attaching backing blocks. The very worst thing to do (and one of the most commonly-done things) is to chisel out the deck core material and to just replace it with some block of about the same thickness and area (worst, as I said to Marty, would be metal. Just: no). The system I recommend has about three benefits over anything like that, and it's easier and cheaper.
  • 1. Locate the hardware, above and below the deck. You can use one tiny (3/32"?) pilot hole through the whole system to see where it lands.
  • 2. Lay out the access hole (doesn't have to be immediately below the hardware; you only have to be able to reach the locknuts through it). I suggest those plastic deck plates; I've also made a few for Diana about of varnished lauan plywood (my removable-panel material of choice). Starboard is not out of its element here.
  • 3. Fabricate the backing block. My material of choice is epoxy-saturated plywood. Hardware in tensile needs wide-area, not so thick (1/2" or 3/8"). Hardware in shear needs thickness (3/4"). Attach this to the underside with a dam of 5200 round the perimeter and one long-enough sheetrock screw (yes). Drive that sucker straight up through the block, the core and the deck itself - bust it right out the other side (a tiny pilot hole helps). The hardware goes on the other side so you won't see the hole. If it breaks out a little gelcoat and laminate, that roughed-up surface is actually excellent for holding extra 5200 when you bed down the hardware.
  • 4. When the 5200 is set up, back out the screw, fill its hole at the bottom with Marine-Tex (or just cover with duct tape like I do) and drill mounting holes for the hardware through the deck, through the core and about halfway into the block. Make these oversize (3/8" drill for 1/4-20 screws). Fill from the top with epoxy. This epoxy will go into the edge of the core and spread through the structure. If you have voids it may run pretty far. Sound the deck first (hammer taps) to see how far it might go. If you're worried, thicken it a little. Pump it in with a syringe. The epoxy will go into the core, will flood the gaps between the block and the underside of the deck till the dam of 5200, and fill the holes you just drilled.
  • 5. When the epoxy sets up, drill the proper-sized holes through the epoxy cores and bed down the hardware. When you're done with the locknuts, fit the cover plate on the other side.
The benefits are: easy access; strength and stiffness of integral backing block; allowing the epoxy to stiffen the deck structure; elimination of potential core damage through leaks; simplicity in doing it; and a certain elegance in having it exactly like you'd like to have it.

Do this with shear loads: halyard stoppers, cheek blocks, winches (do not bed with 5200 though), mooring cleats & bitts, cockpit-seat hinges. Do this with tensile loads: mast-base halyard blocks, travelers, padeyes (like for the vang), anchor-roller (aft ends try to pop up, not tear out). With the addition of a proper compression post, this is how you strengthen the deck for the compression load of the mast step as well.

I am still in open-mouthed shock :yikes: that Dalliance's traveler was fastened down with sheet-metal screws or lag screws and not machine screws with locknuts. No way that was a factory job (not for that vintage anyway). I don't remember any but the 27 leaving the factory with cabintop travelers in the '70s; and the 27 had two blocks to the ends and an 'A-frame' sheeting arrangement. Most boats were designed with bridge-deck travelers, as the only proper place for a traveler is directly below the end of the boom. The H25's cockpit was even retooled to accommodate that ('78 or '79-on). But, as I always say, in most cases every PO of your boat was an idiot :dancing: so who knows whatever happened before any one of us got hold of his current boat?
 
Oct 6, 2007
1,023
Hunter H30 1982 Chicago IL
Looks like Marty's question got pretty well handled here but I just replied to Marty's PM.
......I am still in open-mouthed shock :yikes: that Dalliance's traveler was fastened down with sheet-metal screws or lag screws and not machine screws with locknuts. No way that was a factory job (not for that vintage anyway). I don't remember any but the 27 leaving the factory with cabintop travelers in the '70s; and the 27 had two blocks to the ends and an 'A-frame' sheeting arrangement .......
DianaOfBurlington,
I don't want to hijack the thread, but a quick note -- The pattern of old bolt holes would be consistent with the "A-frame" sheeting as the factory original. Those bolts, like the PO's traveler installation, were machine bolts threaded into the factory original aluminum plate that is laminated into the cabintop. Your reaction rather confirms my decision to abandon that attachment method for the traveler. It's solid now. BTW, I've seen no indication on the boom, or in the cockpit, that the boat has ever had anything other than mid-boom (about 2/3 back) sheeting.
 
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Oct 30, 2011
91
Hunter Cherubini 27 Mason
Thanks everyone, all I need now is a contortionist about half my size.
 
Jun 5, 2010
1,107
Hunter 25 Burlington NJ
DianaOfBurlington,
I don't want to hijack the thread, but a quick note.... BTW, I've seen no indication on the boom, or in the cockpit, that the boat has ever had anything other than mid-boom (about 2/3 back) sheeting.
Same; but the possibility is always there that the boom was replaced. Mine is so peppered with holes from the stupid 1970s reef-block track and other PO bodges that, though I've properly filled and faired them all, makes it look pretty much like Frankenboom's monster. I've thought several times about ordering a new one from DAMCo.

Still I'll grant that maybe you had some kind of midboom sheeting from the factory. The 25, 27 and 30 all suffered from my dad's conviction that they were all too-small boats trying to be too big (thanks to Hunter marketing). As many may know I built a bridge deck for Diana to carry the traveler, a much better place both for structural soundness and for sail trim than atop the cabin and fastened inside a secretive headliner. I'd recommend it to anyone with the wherewithal to do a good job of it.
 
Jun 5, 2010
1,107
Hunter 25 Burlington NJ
Thanks everyone, all I need now is a contortionist about half my size.
Dear friend, welcome to the world of small-boat ownership! We could start a whole never-ending thread on 'Stories of climbing into tiny remote spaces inside boats we all thought couldn't possibly exist big enough to swallow us whole, as it were.' But, I digress (as usual). o_O