What would you do?

Benny17441 · Apr 24, 2017

You have to able to anticipate what the sails are going to do before you maneuver. Communicating instructions requires that everyone understands them and that is why using the correct nomenclature and marine terms is so important "turn left, just does not cut it". Allow me to suggest that you learn how to single handle your boat and then teach individual members of your crew to perform certain functions according to their ability and interests. Trying to teach the whole crew at once will only overwhelm the Captain. You learn and you do and then you teach; you need to have their confidence in your ability to captain the boat.

LeslieTroyer · Apr 24, 2017

Pay an experianced sail instructor to give lessons on your boat - pay attention to where the wind is comming from and let everyone know where the boat should be pointed to when you have finished your maneuver . When tacking you can leave the main to do its own thing, if you needed to harden up first do that then tack. After having some instruction practice tacking and jibing, it shouldn't be scary or hard - no matter what the wind is doing --

Jackdaw · Apr 24, 2017

You got part of it - unless skilled and everyone knows what going to happen, always tack 'beat to beat', with the driver turning through 90 degrees.

If you do that, there should be very little main work at all; none if you have centered the traveler.

Let the DRIVER make the turn call. Have them first find a point (either on shore or a compass bearing) of the 90 so they know where to stop the turn. Overturning will crash-gibe (as you found out) the boat.

dlochner · Apr 24, 2017

John,

We've all had days like that. Even after a lot of years of sailing.

As you noticed, everyone starts over reacting, tension goes up, voices go up, and the fun meter goes down.

It may seem counter intuitive, but if you let everything go, main sheet, jib sheet, and tiller, the boat will head up into the wind and go in irons. There will be a lot of noise and the jib sheets will flog and wrap together, but the boat will stop, sit upright and point into the wind. Try it on a relatively calm day.

The only way to get better is to practice. The next time you go out, do 10 or 20 tacks. Just back and forth repeatedly. Spend a minute or two after every tack and review what went right, what went wrong. Keep practicing until everyone has it down and no one needs to be told what to do.

While it might seem easier, gybing is far more challenging and dangerous as the boom can come flying across the cockpit. Learn to tack well first, then move to gybing.

And whatever you do, try to keep the fun meter high, especially for the kids. Even if it means an ice cream stop on the way home.

Crazy Dave Condon · Apr 24, 2017

Being new to sailing, the best advice I can give having been a dealer but now retired, never try to teach your wife. Hire and pay an instructor to teach the both and leave the kids at home until you know what your are doing. Book learning is not the same as hands on when it comes to sailing as the weather can change on you in a heartbeat even at Guntersville and I have delivered a few boats there over the years. So my advice to an engineer is what I stated above and tell your wife and kids, everyone needs to know how to handle a sailboat not just one thing in case of an emergency...

vhoisington · Apr 24, 2017

One of the best lessons I learned from an old instructor, sailboats have 3 engines. The stink pot on the back, the main and the jib. One of the first times out with my wife on our Hunter 25 we had a similar issue, with a micro burst suddenly laying us over, dumped both sails and she's calling for me to get the motor running. I just gathered myself, put my son on th etiller to hold her steady and then pulled in the jib to begin to give some control. In almost all of these situations you can do things like dump the main and bring the jib in to give you some control, or vise verse dump the jib and use the main. I like using the jib, just because its a little smaller and I can manage it and the tiller until I get things under control but it is your choice.

Moving from broad reach to close hauled should be simple since its just a matter of trimming in sails while turning the boat. One trick here is to turn before trimming. that way sails start to luff before you are over powered. Think of it a turn, trim the jib and tame the main (3 T's - Turn, Trim, Tame). Just like you've learned the launch and docking maneuver you need to learn the same when sailing.

One other thing to learn is how to heave-to. Its the best way to bring the boat under control in almost any wind, give everyone a break and gather your self. Aif you need to reef, heaving to will allow you to do it in almost any wind.

Just some things I've learned, you'll figure out what works for you and the family.

Fair winds,

Victor

rgranger · Apr 24, 2017

Great post, thanks for sharing.

Everyone who learns to sail has a few bad starts and even if you are a seasoned sailor, if you go out often enough, something goes wrong eventually.

I also have family as crew and your story sounded familiar. No one likes to get barked at, and getting barked at with adrenaline pumping through your veins is a sure way to ruin a kids day. Been there, felt horrible later, sorry it happened to you.

It sounds to me like you might need to do some reefing drills. Keeping the sails balanced for the wind conditions makes for a pleasant ride.

Drills in general will help build crew confidence. Maybe take a day when the winds are a nice 8 mph and practice hove to, reefing, MOB etc. Give each person some time on the tiller and make up some mock situations so they can practice dumping wind for an imaginary over powered sail... a fun thing I've done is to be at the tiller.... throw a float overboard and declare.... "I've just fallen over board.... what are you going to do" and then let go of the tiller. Personally, it makes me feel better knowing my crew is capable of coming back to get me if I fall over.

The other thing to remember is that the flapping of sails gets everyone's nerves on edge but it really isn't dangerous, so the captain must fake some calm ... "Fake it 'till you make it". We are probably all guilty of barking orders in the moment, I know I am. It is probably fair to say that the biggest improvement I've made as a captain is to use a calm voice when talking to the kids... even as the heel exceeds 45 and stuff starts crashing around in the cabin.

justsomeguy · Apr 24, 2017

dlochner said:
voices go up

Ya, usually this. Try to get your crew to understand that you're not yelling, but just making sure you're heard clearly over the flogging sails.

dlochner said:
The only way to get better is to practice.

Ya, always this.

Scott T-Bird · Apr 24, 2017

This should be a good learning experience, and we've all gone through plenty of those!

I had to read your post a few times to fully understand your maneuver. It appears you were on a broad reach (you did not mention which side, stbd or port?) so you were basically sailing downwind. It appears that you didn't intend to swing the boat thru the wind. It sounds like you just wanted to change your heading to a close reach or close haul on the same side. Since you weren't clear about this, and you said "hard about", I think that you mis-communicated your intention. "Hard about" means that you wanted to swing the boat thru the wind from a broad reach all the way thru a tack to the other side. It sounds like your wife did what you commanded with the tiller except that you weren't ready for it because you weren't expecting to go thru the wind.
So, first, you should clarify your intentions, rather than calling out terms that don't mean exactly what you want. Second, the wind didn't sound strong enough to cause commotion or excessive healing. It is a bit tricky to turn a boat from a broad reach to a close reach, because when you turn beam on to the wind, your heeling will increase. But I don't understand your explanation that you were "guiding" the boom. You should not have your hands on the boom, if that is what you meant. If you intended to say that you were sheeting the boom to maintain control, that is more acceptable. I would suggest that you need to use a bit more finesse. You should have told your wife that the turn from broad reach to close reach should be slow and smooth so that you can feather the sail out during that critical moment when the boat wants to heel. She should have no problem finishing the turn before heading into the wind, while you start to draw the mainsail back in as it begins to luff. I don't know why you would have your son on the lazy jib sheet. It sounds like all you needed was an adjustment of the working jib sheet.
Perhaps I'm reading your explanation wrong and you did intend to come "hard about". Maybe I'm wrong, but I wouldn't use that command to describe the action. In fact, I wouldn't go from a broad reach on one side to a close haul or close reach on the other. I would jibe, if that was my intention. But some people would do it, and I suggest that the maneuver should be separated into 2 parts for clarity with your crew. First, bring your boat from a broad reach to a close haul on the same side as described above. Then, make sure that everybody is ready for a "hard about" maneuver that would change tacks. That would probably eliminate the confusion and make everybody happier.
One final point ... I am never in favor of just "dumping" the sheets when I get into a tricky situation or have seemingly lost control. First of all, you shouldn't lose control. Secondly, luffing sails always rattles the nerves of inexperienced crew and gives them a sense that you don't know what you are doing. Before you "dump" the sheets, just get yourself going in a stable direction with control of the sails, then sort out your intentions after. When you dump the sheets, you are relinquishing control of the boat to the wind and the waves. Don't do that.
There may be a time when you lose control of a jib sheet, and the luffing is extremely violent. Just don't do this intentionally. If it happens for a reason, such as a parting line or losing it out of the block, your crew can accept that it is an unintended situation and they will appreciate it when you re-gain control. When you dump the sheets intentionally, it is an admission of incompetence and the crew will intuitively know it.
The best thing to do is laugh it off as a learning experience. It sounds like there was no harm, no foul. Admit the mistakes and move on, everybody will be in much better spirits when the mistakes are acknowledged.

Kings Gambit · Apr 24, 2017

John, thanks for sharing this with us. I completely understand your issue here. I think you already now know; the apparent wind decreases when sailing off the wind on a broad reach or a run. If you come up toward the wind suddenly, it can be VERY startling as to how quickly the apparent wind increases and to what effect--namely heeling, often with a strong weather helm, which is what ultimately drives the boat through the eye of the wind unexpectedly. It takes an experienced helmsperson to anticipate weather helm and correct for it b/f the boat tacks unexpectedly.

Two things. First, when preparing to head up-wind after blowing downwind for some number of minutes or hours, look behind you to gauge the strength of the true wind. If you see any white caps at all on the water it's probably blowing at least 12 knots true speed. As you turn the boat it will quickly accelerate, adding its new boat speed to the wind speed, to generate a new apparent wind near 15 to 16 knots. That is what the sails "feel" and that is what the helmsperson will ultimately have to manage when heading up. Even with a "rapid" coming about, the boat accelerates.

Second, as far as technique goes, do not try to tack in 12 kt from a broad reach. Bring the boat slowing up to the close-hauled position on that same tack and get everyone ready. (As you say in your point #3.) Trim the sails, particularly the main sail, and get the helmsperson prepared. Also, get your other crew ready to move to the high side as the boat heels more. You can do this in a minute or two. When set--say "Ready About" and wait until your crew replies with "Ready." Next---"Helm to Lee" or "Helm a-Lee", so your helmsperson is clear on which direction to push the tiller. Get the boat through the wind and set up on the new course. If you pass through slowly, you can bear off just enough to fill the jib, but leave it "pinching" a bit (this is called feathering). The boat stays flatter with much less helm pressure giving everyone time to get set before trimming to the new close-hauled tack. If done correctly the sails do not "flog" or snap once trimmed in when the boat is feathering. Except for the fact that it seems too flat for the apparent wind speed on your face, you'd hardly notice the difference (unless looking at tell-tales). Feathering a little higher (more toward the wind) can bring the boat to a near stop w/o going into irons. If you need speed to keep from falling off to leeward involuntarily, just bear off slightly and let the boat pick up weigh, and then feather back up again, etc.

A couple of other things. If the sails are old they will bag out too much in strong wind, which has the effect of excessive heeling and weather helm when sailing close to it. Have a sail maker look at 'em; if they are too stretched and cannot be adjusted, then get new ones or forever deal with issues that might result in "not fun" sailing. Also, learn the function of the main traveler and the backstay adjuster, if there is one on your boat. Install a Cunningham and learn how to use it. Those things allow you to control the sail power. If you know how to control it, you'll lose some of your apprehensions.

dlochner · Apr 24, 2017

justsomeguy said:
Ya, usually this. Try to get your crew to understand that you're not yelling, but just making sure you're heard clearly over the flogging sails.

Yeah, that's what I keep telling my wife but I'm not sure I've convinced her yet.

You've received a lot of good advice, most of it pretty consistent. The advice seems to fall into 2 categories, how to keep from getting into trouble and what to do when it all goes to hell.

When a boat suddenly heels way over, the emotional reaction is "We're all going to die!!!!" The long slow process to figure out that you're not going to die is to go heel the boat over a bunch of times and live through it. A quicker way is to understand some of the physics behind the heeling. KG presents this in a very practical way. My preference is to know some of the science behind the magic. So here goes.

There are 2 key elements that control heeling, the keel, that wants to point straight down to the center of the earth, and the mast and sail which point to the heavens (the one you won't be going to if he boat heels over). Wind pushes on the sail which pushes the boat over, the more energy the wind has the greater the pressure on the sail the more the boat heels. The keel is not happy being sideways and it wants to point in the opposite direction. When the weight of the keel pushing down and the wind pressure on the sail are equal the boat remains at a steady angle of heel.

As wind speed increases for whatever reason the pressure on the sail increases and the keel works harder to keep the mast pointing to heaven and the keel towards hell. Here's the saving grace, as the boat heels the amount of sail exposed to the full force of the wind decreases which decreases the heeling force. Eventually the forces reach an equilibrium and the boat settles at set angle of heel and it goes no further. (actually it will oscillate a bit, but not that much)

You can replicate this in a car. Stick your hand out the window, when your palm is at a right angle to the wind there is a lot of force, as you turn your hand to have a smaller profile exposed to the wind, the force on the hand decreases. Have your wife and kids try this on a nice safe street. The principles involved are the same as those on a sailboat.

When a boat starts to heel too much or too fast, releasing or easing the sheets will have the same effect, less sail will be exposed to the wind therefore there is less force exerted on the sail and the boat seeks a new equilibrium point that is more upright, everyone sighs, relaxes and mutters a few expletives.

When boats start heeling excessively the rudder becomes less effective for several reasons. Novice helms persons will pull the tiller hard over, the rudder cavitates and is no longer effective. The proper response is the ease off the helm, reestablish water flow and then steering is restored. Second, as the boat heels the angle of the rudder changes from vertical to more horizontal. The rudder works by changing the direction of the boat on the plane at right angles to the rudder, i.e., when vertical the rudder will move the boat left to right horizontally. As the boat heels, the plane that the rudder steers the boat through becomes more vertical than horizontal. This causes the helsmsperson to pull the tiller more, which cavitates the rudder, which reduces its effectiveness. Letting go of the tiller will cause it to return to the center or neutral position. It is always better to do this in a controlled fashion, but when s-storm hits just letting go will work.

If the boat has a transom hung rudder, there is one more factor. As the boat heels the rudder starts to come out of the water, the less rudder in the water, the less effective it will be.

For me, one of the biggest joys in sailing is that there is always something to learn, even after 50+ years.

Go enjoy and keep the fun meter high.

SG · Apr 24, 2017

Take it from someone that learned the hard way: If you scream and yell, everyone gets uptight. Save the strong voice for situations which the crew or the boat are really at risk. Never use a voice louder than necessary for someone to hear. If you have tension and fear in your voice, then either you scare the inexperienced or show yourself to be out of control.

The best little book that I think you could have you and your crew read is Steve Colgate's (ancient) https://www.amazon.com/Colgates-Basic-Sailing-Theory-Colgate/dp/0671766228 It is succinct, clear, and easy to understand.

A few observations, from one that has done all of the wrong things before myself ;^))):G

Go out on a nice, easy day in open water and sail in big circles. Get you and the crew used to what happens when you trim and don't trim the sail. (Remember always that the call it a "boom" because it can hit your head; and, there are lines that attach to it that you don't want to get caught-up in.) I'd do the circles first with only one sail -- jib, then the main, or vice versa.
You don't need to fall off to come-up. You just need to come to the realization that if you get too close to the wind, the sails flutter (or flog, in stronger winds). You can depower by simply coming up into the wind (if you can stand the flogging or don't get "whipped".
DON'T get excited and yell (it's easier said than done) -- your tension becomes magnifying and gets little done. If you have to scream or yell, make it because you absolutely HAVE TO TO SCREAM.

Miscellaneous thoughts:

If you have more than a 100% head sail, then be especially careful in winds which are more than 10 knots TRUE if you are on the wind. That's not because the boat can't handle it -- it's because you and your crew won't enjoy it. Get them comfortable with the notion of how the boat handles and what makes it go and not go. Get them used to the idea of the boom coming across, the sails fluttering, and what happens when you adjust the sails. Do it in a open area where there aren't obstructions or other traffic.

You have a nice, fun boat. Don't have too much sail up, and you'll have a lot more fun. Get used to handling just the main and then the jib.

If you think you're overpowered by the wind or WILL BE, then reduce sail. I assume you have roller furling? Get used to using it when the wind is close to in front of you, on a beam reach (by taking the pressure off of the sheets), and on a run. With the main, get used to dropping it and getting it out of the way so that it's a second habit. You can sail your O'Day on a close reach and run with just the jib alone. Get used to doing that and see how close you can get to the wind in various wind speeds. In short, just play with the boat a bit.

Having said this, there are conditions which come-up that can reasonably scare the shit out you and your crew. If you have a sense for the boat that you and your crew have developed, you can almost always get through those conditions and grow. If you don't have a clue that you've developed from the "easy times", then you'all will just be overwhelmed.

Gunni · Apr 24, 2017

I get that you want to include the whole family, but no. Like Jackdaw said, the driver picks the turn after calling for ready, you work the jib sheet, leave the main alone, let the kids watch. They learn by watching not by lecture. Your driver got distracted in that Peking fire drill you orchestrated. Have your driver learn what 90degrees is, she sticks her arm straight out to the side, points, and finds a feature on the horizon - that is what she will be steering to.

Kings Gambit · Apr 24, 2017

"Imitation" in learning works well in constant conditions, but I don't think "teaching" is effective unless the student is explained why something is being done. Even if the details of it are not remembered, the fact that there is a "why" might be.

Scott T-Bird · Apr 24, 2017

Hi John, don't let the mistakes get you down. Your boat will take care of you, and I think you did the right thing by making the kids disappear in the cabin while you sorted stuff out. KG's comment about the helm rounding up into the wind in this situation is right on target. Be sure to let your wife know that the forces that she experienced are normal and weren't the result of her inexperience. I also think your terminology was not completely clear as I discussed earlier. Chalk it up to a learning experience. I don't know that you need to go do the whole sailing with an instructor thing. Sailing isn't rocket science and it's a bit geeky to be putting so much emphasis into the "learning" process (if you don't mind my saying). Just go out and sail and make mistakes. Nobody is keeping track of the miscues and your boat will take care of you.
My wife calls me "Captain Kangaroo" just about every time we go out. You'll get more value from instruction when you get into more advanced topics like cruising and navigating. Read Don's book and get his charts (available in the SBO store). This will give most of the background you want as an engineer. Let the family learn at their own pace and unstructured, unless they WANT instruction. My guess is that they just want to absorb it from you, and that's pretty much alright.

Scott T-Bird · Apr 24, 2017

When things go wrong close to shore (or shallow water), that is more stressful than the nice open water areas. Within our first few weeks on Barnegat Bay, I needed to reef the mainsail as Sue and I decided to turn around from a downwind bearing to go back upwind. I got too close to shallow water (which is out in the middle of the bay) when I decided to turn around. I also didn't have my lines set up for reefing (mistake #2). So, as we were pinching into the wind on stbd tack (heading closer to shallow water - mistake #3) and I was taking too much time to set-up, the keel started bumping the sand bottom. As we were about a mile from a shoreline in any direction, it felt like we were in the middle of nowhere and Sue was pretty upset with me, thinking that we were stuck. Luckily, we were able tack over again and motor our way for about 20', plowing thru the sand with the keel, to get out. If we had granite in any of the bottom around here, I would be way more sensitive to shallow water (I hope) and given a much wider clearance between the boat and shallow water, but since it is soft, silty sand, I didn't get very stressed over it.
It goes to show that mistakes can have consequences but learning things the hard way isn't always disastrous ... and it pays if you learn something from the mistakes. Captain Kangaroo earned his moniker that day!

AWalker · Apr 24, 2017

Narrow canyons can be tricky, wind sometimes does odd things in them.
If it makes you feel better, I took my son on the first sail in years a few weeks ago. Sailing along nicely with just the main, and decided to raise the jib. He headed in to the wind, I raised the jib. Unfortunately I had run the sheets under the lifelines not over. Then a big gust comes, jibs a flogging away, mains flogging. I was trying to fix the sheets, but gave up. Went to drop the jib but the wire to rope splice had frayed and it hung up. I inadvertently knocked the tail from the main halyard overboard, which of course wrapped in the prop. Perfect.
Got the jib down and lashed, cut the main halyard out of the prop and unwrapped it, got the motor back on, got the main back up, and called it good.
Went and spent the night in a cove and sailed back the next morning. Few items on the fix it list now. I tried to teach him that even thought we made mistakes and had problems we were able to get it sorted on our own, learned from our mistakes, and still ended up having a good time.

When you are in a new situation try dropping some of the superfluous sails. 1 sail is a lot easier to manage than 3.