New Solar Panels, VSR and MPPT Controller

May 27, 2004
44
Sabre 38 CB Sloop 1987 Seabrook, TX
I have purchased the above and am preparing to install. My current setup is 30A shorepower smart charger, two engine alternators, one for start battery and one for house batteries. I assumed that the solar system would be stand alone, but the instructions for the VSR indicate it will draw .01 amp continuously, if not controlled by a battery switch such as the common Guest Off/1/2/All variety.

Two questions. One, I assume that the VSR is not completely necessary, as the MPPT controller should control charge to both banks simultaneously without any issues. Without the VSR, it will not prioritize banks.

Second, it seems that I could add an isolation switch to the VSR circuit, thus keeping the solar system stand alone. I am reluctant to add more cabling to the Guest switch.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,672
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Which VSR & MPPT controller are we talking about... An MPPT controller charges one bank and almost always feeds directly to the house batteries. If MPPT the controller is "ambient temp sensing" it must be placed as close to the batteries as possible. With remote temp sensing it can be a bit further away....
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,429
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Dave,
A few questions.
Is your house bank, one large bank (2 or more batteries wired as one) or 2 separate batteries?
Where is the battery charger connected?
Where is the alternator output connected?

The simplest solution is to have all of your house batteries wired as one large bank with one fused main lead going to a positive bus bar where all charging devices and loads (main panel, windlass etc) connect with fuses. In this set up there is no need for a VSR or other combining relay between the batteries on the house bank. A combining relay could be installed between the house and start banks which would allow the start battery to be charged by whatever is charging the house bank, alternator, solar, or shore power.

The small current drain on the VSR is not a concern. If it is left on 24/7 it will drain 1 amp/hour every 4 days. It would take about 200 days to draw down a Group 27 battery to a 50% state of charge.

There is a little finesse needed when setting the charging voltages for the alternator when installing solar. Somewhere on the Musings w/Maine Sail forum he describes it. As I recall, the charge voltage for the alternator needs to be about .1v higher than the voltage from the solar panel. When I get to installing solar on Second Star, I'll go back and read and thoroughly understand the reasoning.
 
May 27, 2004
44
Sabre 38 CB Sloop 1987 Seabrook, TX
The VSR is a Marinco BEP. MPPT is a Morningstar sold by Hamilton Ferris under the name Powerboost 200.
 
May 27, 2004
44
Sabre 38 CB Sloop 1987 Seabrook, TX
Dave,
I have a single start battery, 12v and two 6v Trojans as house, all lead acid. Both 110v charger and alternators are one of the few leads going directly to the batteries, with fusing in place. I had planned on doing the same with the leads from the VSR or MPPT if I decided not to use the VSR. It was my understanding that the VSR was a way to prioritize charging of the start battery over the house bank. Once the start battery reaches a set voltage, then the VSR directs it's charge to the house bank. If the start battery then falls below a certain set voltage the relay is reversed.

Thanks for the heads up re the alternator voltage setting. I do have a Balmar VR that is adjustable. I'm not sure if the original Westerbeke alternator's VR is.
 
May 27, 2004
44
Sabre 38 CB Sloop 1987 Seabrook, TX
I believe this MPPT controller is ambient temp sensing. At present, my plan is to have it less than 6 feet from the batteries.
 
May 27, 2004
44
Sabre 38 CB Sloop 1987 Seabrook, TX
I should clarify that it was my intent to use the VSR for the solar panels only.
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,429
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Not sure it will work the way you intend it without making the system more complicated.

If the VSR is only to control the output from the solar panels, then there would need to be a switch to disconnect the solar charge from the batteries when other charging sources are being used, i.e., the alternators and battery charger.

Once it is connected between the 2 battery banks it will always see the voltages on the batteries and is agnostic about the charging source. When one bank is being charged the relays open and allow the other bank to be charged. When the voltages begin to drop, meaning the battery is charged, the relays open again and separate the batteries. This is what you want in order to keep both banks batteries charged.

The start battery is rarely deeply discharged, so it will be recharged quickly. That is why Maine Sail and others recommend putting the charging sources on the house bank and not the starting bank. The house bank will normally need more recharging than the start bank. Once the start bank stops accepting a charge, the voltage will drop and the relays open isolating the banks.

I'm not sure what will happen in your case with 2 alternators, one each for the house and start banks.

If you want to set the priority charge source, I think it can be done by setting the maximum voltages of the charge sources. If the alternator is primary and the max charge voltage is set at 14.7 then the solar should be set at 14.6. This way, when the controller sees the system voltage at 14.7 it won't kick in. Similarly the max voltage on the shore based charger is set at 14.7 it will take priority over the solar charger. Presumably the shore charger and alternator are more powerful than the solar panels and will charge things faster than the solar panels.

Does this make sense? Hopefully MS will weigh in and clarify my thinking and provide a more informed answer to your question. At any rate it is helpful to me to think this through in anticipation of my next electrical upgrade.
 
May 27, 2004
44
Sabre 38 CB Sloop 1987 Seabrook, TX
All good points. My thought was to put the VSR between the MPPT and the two battery banks, so that input voltage would only come from that source. If the alternate charging sources were engaged, would that still affect the VSR? And if so, to what end? This is really academic, as I see the simplicity of going to the house bank only with solar, since you correctly pointed out the start battery gets almost no discharge. I was just thinking of redundancy, hence the idea of using a VSR. I picked up the VSR notion from MS how to. He mentioned it in conjunction with solar power, but probably not to be used the way I've planned it.
 

Sumner

.
Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
Why not just hook up the VSR the way it is intended to be hooked up as per their instruction ...

"Start Batt Positive + (Large stud marked red): Connects to the battery (Live) side of the Start Battery Isolator Switch House Batt Positive + (Large stud): Connect to the battery (Live) side of the House Battery Isolator Switch"

It will take care of combining them when their is a charging source (solar, alternator, other). I don't see how you can put it between the MPPT and both banks. The one I see on their site ...

http://www.marinco.com/en/products/battery-management/switches/remote-operated-vsr

.... connects to two battery banks and is not wired to send a charging source to one or the other from a charging source. It will allow the charging source that is connected to one of the banks to also go to the other when the charging voltage goes above 13.4 volts.

Maybe I'm missing something.

Sumner
===========================================================
1300 miles to The Bahamas and Back in the Mac...
Endeavour 37 Mods...

MacGregor 26-S Mods...http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/endeavour-main/endeavour-index.html
Mac Trips to Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, Canada, Florida, Bahamas
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,672
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
All good points. My thought was to put the VSR between the MPPT and the two battery banks, so that input voltage would only come from that source. If the alternate charging sources were engaged, would that still affect the VSR? And if so, to what end? This is really academic, as I see the simplicity of going to the house bank only with solar, since you correctly pointed out the start battery gets almost no discharge. I was just thinking of redundancy, hence the idea of using a VSR. I picked up the VSR notion from MS how to. He mentioned it in conjunction with solar power, but probably not to be used the way I've planned it.

#1 While a VSR is a "nice to have" item, for automated charging of a start bank, I don't see a need when you have a dedicated alternator for the start battery. You also have the redundancy of the BOTH position if the start battery alt were to fail.

#2 Unless you desired more amperage during bulk, by combining the banks during bulk with the VSR, the VSR is really not doing much of anything because your start battery has its own alt..

#3 A dual-sensing VSR/ACR/Combiner does not "prioritize" anything. Think of it as a voltage triggered, automated version of the BOTH position. When either battery attains the minimum combine voltage, and time (5 seconds at 13.4V for the BEP), the banks are automatically paralleled for charging. It takes very little current to raise the voltage of a small 99% charged start battery to 13.4V. In the 30 or so seconds it will take to combine you are not "charging" the start battery first... At a high SOC, like 99%, that last 1% is horribly inefficient so that last 1% can take a considerable amount of time to replace and this is not happening in the 5 - 30 seconds it takes for most VSR's to parallel the two banks..

Let's assume your PV is capable of 5A and you have an 80Ah start battery. Lets also assume the last 1% of SOC is 50% efficient (it can be worse). Immediately your 5A is having 2.5A wasted as un-storable energy. We will now assume it took 30 seconds to attain the combine voltage of 13.4V.

30 seconds at 2.5A = .021Ah of stored energy. 1% of an 80Ah battery is 0.8Ah needing to be returned, at a 50% efficiency, for a full charge. It would take approx 20 minutes at 5A to replace the 0.8Ah you'd be down at 99% SOC. The marketing departments like to lead folks to believe that a VSR can "prioritize" charging but they really do nothing of the sort..

#4 By wiring a low current solar array to the start battery first, with a VSR, you will create a relay cycling scenario that may take take a long time to sufficiently charge to your house bank due to what is called "relay cycling"... At low states of charge, 50-90% SOC, it takes either considerable time at a low current or considerable current for a shorter time to bring a house bank to combine levels. This is why it is best to allow the house bank to be directly connected to the MPPT. The PV will slowly bring voltage to combine point and then combine with the start battery. There will be no relay cycling in this scenario and the VSR only has to pass the trivial currents the start battery needs across it.

Your start battery will always be near full, because its a start battery and starting an engine takes very, very little Ah's out of the battery.

Relay cycling works like this; Sun comes up and due to SOC of the start battery, the voltage quickly & easily exceeds the VSR combine qualifiers of 13.4V for 5 seconds.

The VSR combines after 5 seconds (possibly as much as 30 seconds) at 13.4V and now the house bank sucks voltage back below the 12.8V disconnect voltage point because the PV does not have the oomph or current to maintain a combined state charging into a depleted house bank.

After 20 seconds of combined-state the relay opens.. Repeat, repeat, repeat..... Relay cycling is why we feed charge sources to the house bank not the start bank first.

#5 Your solar controller is not made by Morningstar it's a Chinese controller imported by Ham. That controller has internal temp compensation so it really needs to be close to the batteries so it can sense the correct ambient temp.
 
May 27, 2004
44
Sabre 38 CB Sloop 1987 Seabrook, TX
Maine,
Thank you for the detailed response. On point #5, I just went to the HF website and you are correct. They list Morningstar directly below the Powerboost 200 and I incorrectly assumed it was part of that line. I'm a bit disappointed by this revelation, as I read your how-to on solar and your recommendations for MPPTs prior to purchasing. Any known issues with the Ham unit other than ambient temp sensing? I have the unit +/- 5' from the battery bank. Does that seem close enough? In the end, I did not use the VSR, instead going just to the house batteries with the MPPT feed. All seems to be working fine.
 

Sumner

.
Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
.... They list Morningstar directly below the Powerboost 200 and I incorrectly assumed it was part of that line. I'm a bit disappointed by this revelation, as I read your how-to on solar and your recommendations for MPPTs prior to purchasing. ....
I'd be disappointed also, but can see how you could come to that conclusion after looking at their page...

http://www.hamiltonferris.com/products/Solar_Controllers/MPPT_Solar_Controller/72

.... In my opinion they have a very misleading add going there for the Powerboost, and should either put the two different controller lines/manufactures on different pages or put the PowerBoost info/cost under it and the Morningstar controllers under that name. I'll bet they have a very high profit margin going on the PowerBoost,

Sumner
==================================================================
1300 miles to The Bahamas and Back in the Mac...
Endeavour 37 Mods...
MacGregor 26-S Mods...
Mac Trips to Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, Canada, Florida, Bahamas
 
May 27, 2004
44
Sabre 38 CB Sloop 1987 Seabrook, TX
MS, if you are still monitoring at this thread, can you comment on DL's recommendation for prioritizing the charge source? I did speak with Hamilton Ferris regarding the Powerboost 200. They said that they have had no warranty issues since a re-design in 2015.