Rebedding Toe rail

Oct 30, 2011
91
Hunter Cherubini 27 Mason
I just purchased a Cherubini H27, I'm planning on re-bedding all on the deck hardware. Does the deck wood core extend under the aluminum toe rail?
 

RoyS

.
Jun 3, 2012
1,739
Hunter 33 Steamboat Wharf, Hull, MA
I have a C33 and the core does not reach under the toe rail or stanchion fastenings.
 
Jun 8, 2004
994
C&C Frigate 36 St. Margarets Bay, Nova Scotia
Solid glass under the toe rail on the H37C. Only make sense as this is also the hull to deck joint - cored glass would not withstand the clamping forces.
 
Oct 30, 2011
91
Hunter Cherubini 27 Mason
Thanks all. I have multiple drips rom the bolts that hold the toe rail down. I was afraid that with a wood core in there with water intrusion I would also have a rotted core. The previous owners kept the interior very clean so there wasn't any evidence of water dripping.
 
Jun 8, 2004
994
C&C Frigate 36 St. Margarets Bay, Nova Scotia
My toe rails were bedded with butyl. Since the butyl stays pliable, even 30 or 40 years on, it is possible to cure some leaks just by tightening the nuts on the inside. Have someone hold the screw head stationary on the outside and tighten the nut on the inside using a ratchet with a deep socket.
 
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kito

.
Sep 13, 2012
2,011
1979 Hunter Cherubini 30 Clemmons
I had leaks in my H30 that drove me crazy. It wasn't until I tightened the over 100 toe rail nuts that it slowed down the leaking. I then ran a tiny bead of sealant between the deck and toe rail and stop the leaking completely.
 
Jun 21, 2007
2,105
Hunter Cherubini 36_80-82 Sausalito / San Francisco Bay
finefurn:

I should have participated sooner after you posted your question. But maybe it's one of those "better late than never" situations.

To reinforce some of the responses already that recommend snugging up the toe rail bolts is likely to be a successful first "fix", below is a cut-and-paste of a post I made way back in 2009. Subsequent to 2009, I needed to snug up a second time. (Maybe four years ago.) I haven't had leaks since... Even last winter when the San Francisco Bay area had several "El Nino" torrential rain events:
______________________________


I have a 1980 Cherubini Hunter 36. A few months ago, I tightened all of the hull/deck bolts (i.e. the toe rail bolts that others have already mentioned). Reason was that my boat was leaking in the bow/V-berth area. I went to the boat during a rain-storm to investigate, and from the inside I could feel wetness along the hull/deck joint at several places. I have read that a proper fix is to remove the toe-rail, separate the deck to hull joint, put in new sealant and then tighten. But this is a big job, so I figured instead to first just tighten the bolts/nuts.

If the toe rail bolts have never been tightened on your boat, its something that probably will be useful. After 28 years, most of my toe rail bolts were no longer even close to being snug. Assuming that a 1980
H30 has the same toe rail and deck joint configuration as a 1980 H36, the tightening process is have one person on deck to hold the bolt from turning with a Phillips screw driver (to minimize damage to the caulk seal by the turning screw) … as the second person tightens the nut underneath. I didn't have a second person, so my solution was to clamp the screw head with a vice grip; aligning the vice grip in a manner that that it rests against the toe rail as the nut is tightened. You will need an extended length socket. Because of different accessibility positions for each location, you will also need several different lengths of socket extenders, and an universal swivel joint. Also for a few of the nuts, I needed to use a socket set fitting that looks like an open ended box wrench (sorry I don't remember what these are called).

My boat remains dry now during rain, even this week after the +/- 5 inches of rain we received in the San Francisco area over the past several days. One item that surprised me as I tightened all my toe rail nuts is that still pliable caulk (or butyl tape?) was squeezed out from under the toe rail edge on the deck. “Still pliable after all these years”. Another benefit for me after tightening the toe rail is that I no longer have what sometimes were alarming cracking and popping sounds from the hull/deck when I winched the jib sheets real tight. My jib sheet blocks are snatch-blocks attached to the toe rail.



rardi
1980 Cherubini Hunter 36
San Francisco Bay

rardiH36, Feb 17, 2009 Report

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Alctel

.
Dec 13, 2013
264
Hunter 36 Victoria
I'd love to know how you got to some of those bolts Rardi! Pretty hidden away
 
Jun 21, 2007
2,105
Hunter Cherubini 36_80-82 Sausalito / San Francisco Bay
I'd love to know how you got to some of those bolts Rardi! Pretty hidden away
Hi Alctel:

Really almost all of the toe rail nuts on our 1980 Hunter 36's are accessible. However, as I intimated already, to do so takes quite an arsenal of socket set equipment. And some contortionist discomfort.

For some of the nuts, such as at the bow, two 12" extensions (for 24" total) are needed. Coupled to a universal swivel fitting, coupled to a long (deep) socket. And often the edge liner obstructs. But since it does have some give, it can be first levered/pushed out of the way. And for some nuts, I could get an extension + swivel into the area, but the angle was such that the actual socket couldn't fit over the nut. So for those I used "crows feet" sockets. http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...ef88b6684a789977e1125co0&mode=overlay&first=1.

Sometimes, I could only feel the nut with my fingers. But couldn't actually get my head into a position to see. So for those its "close your eyes" and go by virtual visualization.

Wrapping electrical tap around the universal swivel sometimes was needed to keep it from flopping too much as the extension + swivel + socket was maneuvered into position.

In the end, I was able to tighten all but a few.
 
Jan 24, 2009
450
1981 Cherubini Hunter 27 Shipwright Harbor Marina, MD
I have been on a quest to eliminate leaks in my '81 H27 this summer and tightening the toe rail bolts has helped and also re-bedding the stanchions with butyl tape. I had to cut out part of lip in the headlner at the galley to be able to get in to those bolts, but used a socket with extension on the other ones. A borescope for my phone has helped to be able to see some better.
The section of the underside of the rail that's open in the stbd. quarterberth is how the rest of the rail is, that helps.
Also pull the drawers in the galley and work your fingers/hand down in behind the base of the cabinet, I have a persistent leak there that doesn't readily drain into the bilge to get pumped out. I'll find it, but working on toe rail bolts first (lots & lots of bolts).
There are ways of finding leaks in various posts if you do a search.
 
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Sep 8, 2014
2,551
Catalina 22 Swing Keel San Diego
Someone said 5200... please don't. Emphatically... don't do it.
Good points are made about just tightening the bolts, that works... to a degree. First you have to verify that it is actually bedded with butyl tape to begin with. You never know what a P.O. could have done, and I can't speak to what the factory did.
One thing I can tell you with near 100% certainty is that they did not chamfer the bolt holes. If you've read around the interwebs about boat maintenance and preventing leaks in general you'll find it has become common knowledge to use a countersink bit to add a chamfer to the tops of thru-deck mounting holes. This allows the bedding compound to create an O-ring seal around the fastener shaft, works equally well with screws or bolts. Common knowledge now, but not common practice on 'factory' boats, although more expensive yacht builders have done this with greater consistency.

If you are getting into a winter project of re-bedding all of the deck hardware, which is a great idea, you may want to go ahead and remove the toe-rails completely. This also gives you a chance to address bimetal corrosion. With all the deck hardware off you have a great opportunity of wet sand and buff your deck/cabin gel-coat as well as do any minor repairs to deep scratches, chips, or other blemishes plus any non-skid issues. With all the holes cleared and cleaned of old bedding compound inspect for core damage and repair as needed, over bore and epoxy pot. Use a counter sink bit to chamfer every single hole. Use fresh butyl tape on the toe rails and you can be sure they will never leak again. I like 3M 4000 UV for 80% of bedding jobs, butyl tape for all others.
 

Alctel

.
Dec 13, 2013
264
Hunter 36 Victoria
Hi Alctel:

Really almost all of the toe rail nuts on our 1980 Hunter 36's are accessible. However, as I intimated already, to do so takes quite an arsenal of socket set equipment. And some contortionist discomfort.

For some of the nuts, such as at the bow, two 12" extensions (for 24" total) are needed. Coupled to a universal swivel fitting, coupled to a long (deep) socket. And often the edge liner obstructs. But since it does have some give, it can be first levered/pushed out of the way. And for some nuts, I could get an extension + swivel into the area, but the angle was such that the actual socket couldn't fit over the nut. So for those I used "crows feet" sockets. http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...ef88b6684a789977e1125co0&mode=overlay&first=1.

Sometimes, I could only feel the nut with my fingers. But couldn't actually get my head into a position to see. So for those its "close your eyes" and go by virtual visualization.

Wrapping electrical tap around the universal swivel sometimes was needed to keep it from flopping too much as the extension + swivel + socket was maneuvered into position.

In the end, I was able to tighten all but a few.
Thanks for the detailed post!
 
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Oct 30, 2011
91
Hunter Cherubini 27 Mason
Tightened all the toe rail bolts I could reasonably get at. and still have several drips. There are still quite a few that I can't get at Unless. I cut away a portion of the cabin headliner where it turns down to form a valance over the bolts. The plan is to make the cut on the horizontal about 1 1/2" before it turns down to form the valance. I figure this should give me relatively easy access to all of the bolts. Only question now, is this portion of the headliner a structural element, or is it mostly cosmetic, will removing this valance seriously compromise the integrity of the headliner
 
Jan 24, 2009
450
1981 Cherubini Hunter 27 Shipwright Harbor Marina, MD
Here's a side view from my borescope of the lip on the headliner in the galley area, these were the ones I really had trouble reaching. If I remember correctly, I carefully cut off the foot of the "L" or"J" that gets in the way with an oscillating saw to give me more room to reach them. I think I did it at a slight upward angle to help hide it. The PO installed a paper towel holder there, which helps hide it (it was removed for the side view photo & to do the work). Sorry, I don't have an "after" photo.
 

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Oct 30, 2011
91
Hunter Cherubini 27 Mason
Thanks DK That's just the area that's giving me the most trouble. I'm also refinishing all the woodwork so I'm taking out as much of the interior as possible without actually gutting the interior. I was planning or using my laminate trimmer with a 1/8" straight bit and fence to cut the liner. I can precisely set the depth on the laminate trimmer so I don't cut into the deck above, then use the "Fein" detail saw to finish the cut. If I take it off as a long strip between the bulkheads, it could be replaced as a single unit. Although it would be 3 separate units, V-berth, head and main cabin. If I reattach it with screws I can remove it again at a later time to retighten the bolts if need be.
 
Jan 24, 2009
450
1981 Cherubini Hunter 27 Shipwright Harbor Marina, MD
Good, I'm glad that worked for you. Sounds like I need to have you come help pull my galley, I'd love to get around the icebox and put more insulation on the outside. although that is farther down my list.
There was a recent post in the last day or so about someone thinking of re-configuring their H33 interior and it had a good explanation about how the interior fiberglass is actually a structural part of whole design. Depending on how far you are going you may not want to it, although it's possible I'm misunderstanding something.
I can see re-configuring the drawers in the galley and in the head, seems to be a lot of wasted space there, but I don't have the tools like you do, so I'll live with it.
Dan